Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[HungryHippo]

They need sky and sea in this game, would be soo awesome.

[Sandpark]

They need sky and sea in this game, would be soo awesome.

[Nalien]

They're going to kinda have to work on horizontal progression for horizontal content, though... Otherwise their just isn't going to be much point to the additional content... Final Fantasy XI had a plethora of varied content, and all of it was relevant... This game cannot achieve that, because the extreme vertical progression is just going to render the rewards pointless... They pretty much have to work on some form of horizontal progression for this kind of content... That's not to say we should be doing Palace of the Dead for special stats though... PvP is a good example, I think... Feast offered players nothing in terms of item level progression, it was all about pretty much showing off... People wanted that Wolf Coat because it became a status symbol, not because of it's stats... They need to apply that kind of reward structure to PvE content, I think... Perhaps they intended to, Palace of the Dead is getting a leaderboard after all... If they can give us a compelling reason to care about that, then that can work as a solid justification for participating, because item level who cares rewards will not retain interest long term...

A better way to keep it relevant is through something like the Relic quests... Lord knows the Anima weapons are just a dull chore at this point though... Final Fantasy XI - Treasure of Aht Urhgan was often described as the golden age of the game, and all the content in that expansion served a purpose for its Mythic weapons... You needed to do Nyzul Isle, you needed to do Assaults, you needed to farm Salvage and Einherjar, you needed drops from ZNMs... This is why I'm always saying I prefer the Zodiac weapons to Anima ones... 2.# didn't have a great variety of content, but the Zodiac weapons at least used it... You have to specifically go into Snowcloack for a drop and so on... Anima weapons gave us a lot of freedom in picking how we obtain items, but the result is just a weapon that you can get done without trying... I would have preferred to have had a situation in which Unidentified items only drop in Diadem... I'd have preferred to need to trade in an Aetherpool weapon with my Anima weapon for an upgrade stage... That gives Diadem and Palace of the Dead a solid purpose in the Anima upgrade process...

A lot of the additional content they make just kinda isn't great, too... Hunts, Diadem, and Palace of the Dead are all pretty bad IMO... Palace of the Dead is OK, but when I compare it to other games with procedurally generated levels? It sucks... There are no special rooms that make the procedural generation interesting... There are no different ways in which you power up, that can make one run different to another... You just open silver chests and get +1 to your aetherpool stuff... There are no interesting power ups that have a lasting impact to make a run different from another... Just temporary OP items... Diadem is just instances Hunts, when it could have been closer to Abyssea or something... Hunts are just lazy and pathetic IMO, could have been like ZNMs, perhaps endgame Levequests, so you spawn your own Alteci and Kreutzet, get a drop off both of them, trade them in for a Levequest that'll get you to Mirka, and so on... Instead SE just plops NMs in a zone randomly and I'm meant to enjoy aimlessly wandering around looking for them? F*ck off... At the very least I'm interested to see what the Accursed Hoard adds to Palace of the Dead, could give me Limbus vibes with Ancient Beastcoin farming verses clearing the instance to get towards Proto-Omega/Ultima... That's something I think Deep Dungeons could really benefit from going forward... Give every 50 floor boss a special drop, which when combined grants access to a special encounter, or since we're getting Deep Dungeons II, you could keep Palace of the Dead relevant by making it drop such an item to combine with Deep Dungeon IIs drop for such an encounter... Diadem changes just have me disappointed though, could have worked gathering into it well but instead they're removing it completely... Doesn't fill me with hope for 3.5...

[Sandpark]

They're going to kinda have to work on horizontal progression for horizontal content, though... Otherwise their just isn't going to be much point to the additional content... Final Fantasy XI had a plethora of varied content, and all of it was relevant... This game cannot achieve that, because the extreme vertical progression is just going to render the rewards pointless... They pretty much have to work on some form of horizontal progression for this kind of content... That's not to say we should be doing Palace of the Dead for special stats though... PvP is a good example, I think... Feast offered players nothing in terms of item level progression, it was all about pretty much showing off... People wanted that Wolf Coat because it became a status symbol, not because of it's stats... They need to apply that kind of reward structure to PvE content, I think... Perhaps they intended to, Palace of the Dead is getting a leaderboard after all... If they can give us a compelling reason to care about that, then that can work as a solid justification for participating, because item level who cares rewards will not retain interest long term...

I don't think horizontal would work here and I have asked for it before. I was an avid FFXI player but let's be honest. It was relevant because the level cap or BIS didn't change for x amount of years. And that relevance was really rewarding for the 200-500k subscribers over the course of it's lifetime, and the game was financially successful. However, it never gained a massive playerbase and by massive, I don't mean WoW size but a million plus.

All content will become obsolete as long as rising levels exist for the worlds, enemies, and players. A workaround that is world scaling where enemies strengths scale to match yours. I don't really like that solution though even though it allows players to group easier and keeps content slightly challenging. I feel it cheapens the point of a player progressing and getting stronger in the world.

I can think of a racing game called PGR and in it was a kudos system. Which is a system that not only awarded you for winning but winning with style. I wonder if that would work here? Say you stun x skill successfully earning limit points. Those limit points are zone/content specific and can be used to purchase boons and character perks for that style of content. Sort of a system combining kudos and the champion system from Elder Scrolls Online. And with the limit points you could buy title earned costumes that only a player who achieved that milestone in your type of content could don. Or maybe special crafting styles motif per content. Actually I wish XIV endgame crafting did work like that in unlocking special motifs per specific class.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

As for the recent FF, despite what your personal opinion is, FF XIII was a huge success. It's the 4th game when it come to sales. So yes, stepping out of their comfort zone was a good idea.

It wasn't a success from a gameplay perspective! You'd be hard pressed to find a single person that truly liked the interactive movie feel, and the combat and gameplay is often touted as one of the worst systems in the entire series to date!

[HungryHippo]

It wasn't a success from a gameplay perspective! You'd be hard pressed to find a single person that truly liked the interactive movie feel, and the combat and gameplay is often touted as one of the worst systems in the entire series to date!

I didnt like how closed FF13 was, the battle wasnt bad but I would say 12 one was better. However, story and how linear it was just made it worse. Old hardcore FF fans loved the amazing sidequest etc.

[Reynhart]

You'd be hard pressed to find a single person that truly liked the interactive movie feel, and the combat and gameplay is often touted as one of the worst systems in the entire series to date!

No, you wouldn't. And your "often" is from "the few vocal people that took time to share their opinion on the game".
Most of any playerbase is silent. Any opinion you heard of is irrelevant to the general opinion. Personally, I loved FF XIII, it's one of my favorite. But I don't try to enforce this opinion as a "majority".

A video game is a product. If it sells, it's a succes, if it doesn't, it's a failure. That's the only objective measure you'll find.

And how exactly does this make the game more interesting? I can run a good portion of the content with Mind allocated and DEX gear. You're essentially asking for a complete character development overhaul despite fully acknowledging it is fundamentally pointless because at top tier content, you will be expected to optimize or you won't be taken.

So, why not making every item the same with the same stats ? BiS is already a strong candidate for discrimination. Besides, "top tier" concerns less than 10% of the playerbase judging from Alex Savage clears...not a big deal.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So, why not making every item the same with the same stats ? BiS is already a strong candidate for discrimination. Besides, "top tier" concerns less than 10% of the playerbase judging from Alex Savage clears...not a big deal.

Because people like meaningful progression. Different leveled gear has a noticeable upgrade, thus it feels good. Adding character builds that serve no purpose other than to let you muck around with numbers isn't going to revolutionize the game. It'll only matter in progression content, where you will either need to optimize or groups won't take you.

[Reynhart]

Adding character builds that serve no purpose other than to let you muck around with numbers isn't going to revolutionize the game. It'll only matter in progression content, where you will either need to optimize or groups won't take you.

People really tend to ovethink on this.
"Optimization" is not as mandatory as you think. Most people don't even do raid, let alone "optimal" raid. Save that for the world 1st race, because for the other groups, it doesn't matter.
In 3.0-3.1, bringing a PLD in Gordias was not optimal, yet, perfectly viable for raid groups.

Moreover, the game puts more and more emphasis on random groups, where you can't chose the people you'll run with. We already have the Duty Finder, but the Raid Finder will take care of every endgame content. They said that the Creator won't have group mechanics, and thus, will require less coordination. So, running without any required build will be an option for those who want.

What they could do, also, is putting the echo right away, but the strength of the echo would depend on the amount of people you queue with. Solo : echo 20%, duo : echo 16%, trio : echo 12%, etc...and an additionnal chest if the team has at least one first timer, so they'd be greeted with praise instead of "urgh, another stupid noob...". This is a community game, reward people who actively participate with strangers.

Besides, you can add several builds with purpose, by doing synergy builds. For example, one WAR build might be better IF you have a NIN in your party, another, IF you have a MNK, etc...there won't be one absolute build.
For example, WHM could chose a trait where it recovers a fraction of what he heals. Since WAR receive higher healing, they'd recover more MP than with a PLD or a DRK. They could have a trait to make their HoT refill HP each time the target uses MP. Great when paired with DRK, BLM and SMN, but useless with MNK and DRG, etc...

And, again, 95% of the playerbase don't care about Savage, so they could build their character without requiring optimisation. They'll just chose based on favored gameplay elements.

I'm one of those people that just plays for the fan service and seeing how they re-imagine classic Final Fantasy themes/bosses and enemies and make them work in the world of Eorzea and they do a really good job at it while also being true to the source material.

Yeah, fanservice is fun. But if they decide to include some iconic superbosses like Emerald Wepaon, Omega or Yiazmat...and made them total pushovers, it would be very disappoiting.

[Lewtskie]

People really tend to ovethink on this.

Most folks will only ever consider worst-case scenarios and push that as the standard.

If Crit wasn't such a god-tier stat and Det or Speed were just as useful, I would think the backlash from the average playerbase would be minimal. Few naysayers, but anything outside of savage would be fair game.

What I'm saying is, SE, for reals, make my Speed Demon MNK build truly viable. I already have a NIN and an AST on the line. Let me smash the buttons with the godspeed of a Pro Starcraft player. I have a need for speed and seeing numbers fly faster than people who realized they got put into Steps of Faith.