Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Kaurie]

Yes and no. You need to keep things performing within a tolerance threshold in order for them to be accepted. People will accept a monk over a ninja in their raid composition, but what about an arcanist in full STR gear with melee cross-class skills (Death Blossom, Fracture, Feint etc) that uses those skills instead of his class ones? An arcanist "as such" would already run risk of being kicked frequently. An arcanist that uses a bad build on top? No deal. The team is doing a pretty good job at keeping the jobs somewhat balanced with all the limitations, but I'm not sure how well they'd manage if they added builds on top. At least not if they were to add them for many jobs at once...

As for more class-based jobs - this actually reduces the amount of progression, because they no longer have separate levels. If you progress as scholar, you automatically progress as summoner in terms of level - it's only through gear that the two become separate and thus horizontal progression paths.

Yes, I agree. However your counter example is extremely hyperbolic. This is why I gave the example of using a sub-optimal talent in WoW. It's not me running around in STR gear, it's being suboptimal.

You're arguing like Yoshi, where you're spewing out hyperbolic drivel in order to drive home a point.

I am not sure that I agree it reduces the amount of progression, it simply provides multiple pathways and play-styles from the same core.

I do agree that it would be more difficult to balance. Yoshi said some time ago that 2.x was to set the basics and 3.x was to spice things up. I took that, at the time, as 2.x was to get the core balance there, and 3.x would add a lot of what we talked about - creating more diverse playstyles. It was apparent that I was wrong, but I still feel it is a possibility for the future. With the core balance set, I think that they could now put those resources into balancing the new progression/jobs/specs/talents/gears or whatever they choose to make this game a little more interesting.

[Iromi]

But if you meant iLvl 150 etc., then yeah that's how MMOs work. Gear will always be the 2nd most important thing, it will always make good players even better and bad players atleast a bit useful.

Yea tha tis what I meant...I mean yeah, like 20 levels will have a slight difference..but 100 would be nuts hahaha. Although I personally have seen others kick people for having 20 ilvl difference >.>; I had a tank who was really good but undergeared...poor guy couldn't keep hate off me the entire dungeon ; ; It's that that I don't like. He was doing everything properly but the gear was holding him back :/ I hate the ilvl stuff ; ;

[MomomiMomi]

Gear will always be the 2nd most important thing

First. It's the first most important thing on this game. You don't have the gear, you're either not going to survive the attack or you're not going to meet the DPS check. No amount of skill is going to make up for strict checks.

[Yasuhiro]

snip

There's nothing wrong with what they're doing and trying to appeal to Final Fantasy fans (Because this is the XIVth mainline entry of the series)
I'm one of those people that just plays for the fan service and seeing how they re-imagine classic Final Fantasy themes/bosses and enemies and make them work in the world of Eorzea and they do a really good job at it while also being true to the source material.

I'm actually perfectly fine with Yoshida appealing to fans of the series who have stuck around with it and will continue to do so rather than appealing to the WoWfugee that plays for curiosity for a few days because their friends told them it's just like WoW without mentioning it's just like WoW only in gameplay only for them to come to the official forum complain about stuff like story which has been a staple arguably from the second game or stuff they don't get and feel left out on like various references. Heck, I'm still upset Koji-fox pandered to these type of people by changing the spell names to the outdated number system from the NES/SNES games (which mind you were only numbered because of character limitations and 7 only had them because of poor translation)

But I digress, I'm fine with this game having it's own niche of players rather than trying to appeal to everyone and in the end appeal to no one.

This poor excuse of a response is getting so old now.

You can make a drinking game out of it
RIP liver

[Reynhart]

Adding character builds that serve no purpose other than to let you muck around with numbers isn't going to revolutionize the game. It'll only matter in progression content, where you will either need to optimize or groups won't take you.

People really tend to ovethink on this.
"Optimization" is not as mandatory as you think. Most people don't even do raid, let alone "optimal" raid. Save that for the world 1st race, because for the other groups, it doesn't matter.
In 3.0-3.1, bringing a PLD in Gordias was not optimal, yet, perfectly viable for raid groups.

Moreover, the game puts more and more emphasis on random groups, where you can't chose the people you'll run with. We already have the Duty Finder, but the Raid Finder will take care of every endgame content. They said that the Creator won't have group mechanics, and thus, will require less coordination. So, running without any required build will be an option for those who want.

What they could do, also, is putting the echo right away, but the strength of the echo would depend on the amount of people you queue with. Solo : echo 20%, duo : echo 16%, trio : echo 12%, etc...and an additionnal chest if the team has at least one first timer, so they'd be greeted with praise instead of "urgh, another stupid noob...". This is a community game, reward people who actively participate with strangers.

Besides, you can add several builds with purpose, by doing synergy builds. For example, one WAR build might be better IF you have a NIN in your party, another, IF you have a MNK, etc...there won't be one absolute build.
For example, WHM could chose a trait where it recovers a fraction of what he heals. Since WAR receive higher healing, they'd recover more MP than with a PLD or a DRK. They could have a trait to make their HoT refill HP each time the target uses MP. Great when paired with DRK, BLM and SMN, but useless with MNK and DRG, etc...

And, again, 95% of the playerbase don't care about Savage, so they could build their character without requiring optimisation. They'll just chose based on favored gameplay elements.

I'm one of those people that just plays for the fan service and seeing how they re-imagine classic Final Fantasy themes/bosses and enemies and make them work in the world of Eorzea and they do a really good job at it while also being true to the source material.

Yeah, fanservice is fun. But if they decide to include some iconic superbosses like Emerald Wepaon, Omega or Yiazmat...and made them total pushovers, it would be very disappoiting.

[Thayos]

I love the fan service. It's a Final Fantasy MMO!

[Gramul]

Disappointing but not shocking.
This game's been generally playing it safe from 2.0 forwards.

[Lewtskie]

People really tend to ovethink on this.

Most folks will only ever consider worst-case scenarios and push that as the standard.

If Crit wasn't such a god-tier stat and Det or Speed were just as useful, I would think the backlash from the average playerbase would be minimal. Few naysayers, but anything outside of savage would be fair game.

What I'm saying is, SE, for reals, make my Speed Demon MNK build truly viable. I already have a NIN and an AST on the line. Let me smash the buttons with the godspeed of a Pro Starcraft player. I have a need for speed and seeing numbers fly faster than people who realized they got put into Steps of Faith.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People really tend to ovethink on this.
"Optimization" is not as mandatory as you think. Most people don't even do raid, let alone "optimal" raid. Save that for the world 1st race, because for the other groups, it doesn't matter.
In 3.0-3.1, bringing a PLD in Gordias was not optimal, yet, perfectly viable for raid groups.

Moreover, the game puts more and more emphasis on random groups, where you can't chose the people you'll run with. We already have the Duty Finder, but the Raid Finder will take care of every endgame content. They said that the Creator won't have group mechanics, and thus, will require less coordination. So, running without any required build will be an option for those who want.

Besides, you can add several builds with purpose, by doing synergy builds. For example, one WAR build might be better IF you have a NIN in your party, another, IF you have a MNK, etc...there won't be one absolute build.
For example, WHM could chose a trait where it recovers a fraction of what he heals. Since WAR receive higher healing, they'd recover more MP than with a PLD or a DRK. They could have a trait to make their HoT refill HP each time the target uses MP. Great when paired with DRK, BLM and SMN, but useless with MNK and DRG, etc...

And, again, 95% of the playerbase don't care about Savage, so they could build their character without requiring optimisation. They'll just chose based on favored gameplay elements.

I'm well aware raiding is niche. That wasn't my argument. I am asking what purpose would overhauling the entire character infrastructure serve in content you can beat with three buttons? What you're asking for would essentially be the whole expansion's main focus. And what does it accomplish? Okay, we can tweak and customize our stats or abilities more... but none of it matters because the content outside of raiding you can faceroll over without much difficulty. While I'm not against the idea necessarily, I do not want the devs to dedicate ample resources to a feature rendered largely irrelevant.

Viable yes, but PLD suffered such significant decline prior to 3.2, SE specifically went out of their way to design fights around their strengths. People simply wouldn't take them on a given average. At progression level, you will inevitably see the same. We're already seeing it with the amount of groups dropping WHM for AST now. It happened in FFXI, wherein if you preferred a certain sub-optimal sub class, you weren't likely to be invited for high end content.

In theory, yes. But people will eventually determine what provides the highest DPS and expect it.

And again, what's the point then? Say your examples were implemented. When would you ever need to switch builds? No content outside raiding is remotely challenging.

[Reynhart]

I'm well aware raiding is niche. That wasn't my argument. I am asking what purpose would overhauling the entire character infrastructure serve in content you can beat with three buttons?

I'd say, first : Fun. And second, you're more likely to develop a connection with your character if you build it like you want. And less likely to quit a game where you connected with your character. And, for me, character progression is much more interesting that gear progression, because it's permanent. You don't have to start from scratch every 7 months.

While I'm not against the idea necessarily, I do not want the devs to dedicate ample resources to a feature rendered largely irrelevant.

What's relevant to you might not be for someone else. Is Gold Saucer relevant ? Lords Of Verminion ? Are odd patches dungeons relevant, considering most people probably had better gear from the prior even patch ? Is a new tank or healer relevant for someone who only plays DPS ?

At progression level, you will inevitably see the same. We're already seeing it with the amount of groups dropping WHM for AST now. It happened in FFXI, wherein if you preferred a certain sub-optimal sub class, you weren't likely to be invited for high end content.

By the time most groups really tackles Savage, the gear obtained would widely make up for PLD's lack of damage. And it was stupid in FFXI too. The shift in jobs changed every few months with constant adjustment, yet, once a job received its stigma, it would stay that way forever...

In theory, yes. But people will eventually determine what provides the highest DPS and expect it.

Then why every party composition is not exactly the same ?
...and the top players will love having so much theorycrafting to do to find the "best builds"

And again, what's the point then? Say your examples were implemented. When would you ever need to switch builds? No content outside raiding is remotely challenging.

If I could specialize my DRK in AoE and my WAR in single target, I'd use one for dungeons and one for raids. Someone else might do the opposite depending on the job they want to bring in a raid. If I'd use one job for training, I'd chose a safe build, and my "clear" job will aim for maximum efficiency...If a build offers a fun and special gimmick, I'd use it for fun when I solo, etc...