Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[MomomiMomi]

Some do it purely for fun, others for the rewards. Dungeons are done because tomestone gear is the best means of progression outside Savage. What you're purposing is multiple avenues to achieve the same result. We've seen them attempt this in smaller doses (Aquapolis, Beast Tribes and etc). But doing so with gear is just going to push people in the easiest direction. If my goal is to clear The Creator Savage, I want the fastest way possible to obtain necessary gear. If it came from say, PotD. Then I'll skip dungeons outside running them a couple times for fun because they don't offer what I'm looking for in terms of progression.

Actually I'm proposing multiple sources that come later to obtain the same level of gear; gear that we aren't going to need, because we already have more or less equivalent gear. But you already explained that we don't need gear in our current system, so I fail to see how not needing the gear is a negative.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Actually I'm proposing multiple sources that come later to obtain the same level of gear; gear that we aren't going to need, because we already have more or less equivalent gear. But you already explained that we don't need gear in our current system, so I fail to see how not needing the gear is a negative.

And like I said. How will this incentive people to farm for said gear outside glamour if it accomplishes nothing? Case in point, the two new dungeons will drop ilvl 235 gear. I'll either GC it or pass on everything that doesn't look pretty. Why? It does nothing for me. Furthermore, if say, ilvl 260 gear is obtainable outside The Creator Normal, and through an easier piece of content. People will spam that instead.

So a game that offers character builds and such takes to much time and Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it? What? Diablo 3 and even the Borderlands series are very time friendly and I'd even say they don't get that involved with their builds until about half way through the level cap, similar how 14 doesn't really pick up until 30.

It seems to me that Yoshi just doesn't have the drive to add builds and elements into this game, he maybe trying to please every crowd this game has, so why not release some side content that does builds? I mean if people can get a RP icon next to their name, I don't see how they couldn't add a new game type.

Because the RP icon is a simple UI feature. Character builds necessitate an entire addendum to the character menu infrastructure and basically overhauls progression as a whole. Not only would that impact everyone by design, the cost would be exceptionally high. You're comparing two completely different concepts-- one that requires significantly greater resources.

[MomomiMomi]

How will this incentive people to farm for said gear outside glamour if it accomplishes nothing?

It doesn't have to, because we already don't have incentive to do content. Yet people do it anyway.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It doesn't have to, because we already don't have incentive to do content. Yet people do it anyway.

Yes, we do.

You cap tomestones every week for better gear
You farm the extreme primal for a weapon upgrade
You farm Alexander normal to further upgrade your gear
You attempt Savage for BiS

A 24-man raid is subsequently added for those who struggled with Savage earlier and need higher ilvls to ease the process. If we had ilvl 270 gear to everything, albeit with negligible stat differences. Why do half that content? One of the primary complaints regarding Savage outside its difficulty is the lackluster rewards. Making near equivalent gear easily obtainable would only further diminish the investment.

[MomomiMomi]

Yes, we do.

You cap tomestones every week for better gear
You farm the extreme primal for a weapon upgrade
You farm Alexander normal to further upgrade your gear
You attempt Savage for BiS

A 24-man raid is subsequently added for those who struggled with Savage earlier and need higher ilvls to ease the process.

None of this would change with the proposed system.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

None of this would change with the proposed system.

They would just be rendered pointless. I'll reiterate. Your proposal would put ilvl 270 in multiple pieces of content from the onset. What motivation do I now have to do The Creator normal beyond achievement farming? I can get ilvl 270 gear in faceroll dungeons.

[Jetstream_Fox]

Because the RP icon is a simple UI feature. Character builds necessitate an entire addendum to the character menu infrastructure and basically overhauls progression as a whole. Not only would that impact everyone by design, the cost would be exceptionally high. You're comparing two completely different concepts-- one that requires significantly greater resources.

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

[Kikoten]

character builds

I heard that SE doesn't want to give us a whole slew of new abilities for the next expansion, because of the clutter. Character builds could totally be a thing for 4.0, the more I think about it. I don't know what type of character builds you're thinking of, but a few ideas I've had about it are:

A: A "talent" system much like in WoW. I think this might be a risky step to take, because it runs the risk of making each job even more cookie-cutter than they already are. People with certain builds would be shunned because their build doesn't work as good as this build, or this build is incomparable to that build.

B: Astral/Umbral Soul System: It sounds a little hokey, I know--I'm talented when it comes to thinking up hokey, wacky, weirdo things--but hear me out. What if we could fuse abilities, skills, and spells to further customize and make our jobs seem more like an art? There'd be a bit more diversity, I think. And the Astral/Umbral thing could be like swapping between two sets, much like changing Job souls.

C: I haven't thought of this yet, but it'll probably be just as wacky as the first two.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

[Sandpark]

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

It is only illusion because the game dictates that. If the game wants strong party play and dependence on one another as the core. Any deviation from the set strength of each job takes away from the job it is supposed to depend on. For example if Black Mage could heal or tank close to as good as White Mage or Paladin, then the need for dependency is lessened.

As for gimping yourself, that all depends on the content. If damage as a DPS was not the sole purpose of a DPS and encounters were tuned to be punishing and required you to do things besides damage or an occasional control action. Then the other means of progressing would not be an illusion, but a choice. Bare in mind that this is a group based game and most things are locked behind instances and level caps.

If there was solo/low man open world content or instanced content with encounters that damage alone could not get you past and you would die often, (no squishies)then different builds would be a real choice not some illusion. Here in this game it doesn't fit how it is. It would be an illusion here because of the trinity and the wanting of grouping to be the main source of playing. The experimental type of builds is where classes could shine if everything wasn't tuned to group play.