Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[bass9020]

Or maybe, just maybe, they like the current system and disagree with your "interesting" ideas. Nonetheless, forum representation of any game is a decidedly minority. And even then, different forums have different stances. For instance, the FFXIV reddit community is far less negative than this board. Your opinions are just that: opinions. Don't presume they are unique just because you fancy them. I, for one, found Black Desert boring. You said in another thread you liked it. To me, BDO is a boring grindfest to you it may be something else. That's okay. We just have different interests.

I've come to terms that nothing we say will ever happen and as I've said already I will play to enjoy the story and the few fluff they add then unsub until the next patch. Ill get my last Vet reward since those will be ending as well and enjoy other games and give my money elsewhere.

And i agree with you on BDO but something still draws me to it but the RNG can suck it.

[Auteur]

Yoshi's right in terms of the big picture, think of a MMO like running a casino: you don't give comps to the shark big-time winners, you give comps to the casual big losers. Why: because they are much more in need of something to keep their interest (and give you money) than the sharks (the sharks already will stay because they win).

Consequently, there's not enough marginal benefit from attempting to pander the "raiders" or whatever other designation you give to the hardcore folks. Even if they burn through content real quick (cause they hardcore), they are going to do that no matter what and they'll come back on a fairly regular basis. On the other hand, focusing on the hardcore risks a total collapse: the hardcore people (borrowing someone else's quote) burn through content faster than normal human levels no matter what and there will be high attrition from everyone else (because they're going to get gated hard). Hence you lose the "hardcore bored" people AND everyone else, a classic double negative.

[Kaurie]

Yeah I don't like the sounds of the FFXI system. Swapping gear in combat just sounds cumbersome. I don't think that multiple gear sets is a necessity with horizontal progression, that said I am also not opposed to (or for) the idea of having multiple gearsets - FFXIV has a system already in place to pretty easily change your gear.

Yoshi's right in terms of the big picture, think of a MMO like running a casino: you don't give comps to the shark big-time winners, you give comps to the casual big losers. Why: because they are much more in need of something to keep their interest (and give you money) than the sharks (the sharks already will stay because they win).

Consequently, there's not enough marginal benefit from attempting to pander the "raiders" or whatever other designation you give to the hardcore folks. Even if they burn through content real quick (cause they hardcore), they are going to do that no matter what and they'll come back on a fairly regular basis. On the other hand, focusing on the hardcore risks a total collapse: the hardcore people (borrowing someone else's quote) burn through content faster than normal human levels no matter what and there will be high attrition from everyone else (because they're going to get gated hard). Hence you lose the "hardcore bored" people AND everyone else, a classic double negative.

I agree with your post, but I don't see how providing character progression beyond max level counts as designing content for raiders. That would be content for everyone, and I am confident some raiders would love it, some would hate it, some non-raiders would love it and some non-raiders would hate it.

Interestingly, from my perspective, this game already designs pretty heavily around raiding. Once you are max level there is very little to do (combat-wise) outside of raiding. Most non-raiding content is non-combat related (gold saucer, mini games, crafting, gathering, housing etc.)

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Not sure why people would have multiple gear sets with the addition of horizontal progression. Is this an FFXI thing?

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

[Auteur]

Interestingly, from my perspective, this game already designs pretty heavily around raiding.

Having not played a while, I am basically a new player.

Businesses only really care about two kinds of people: (1) new customers, and (2) the really big spending customers. Lets assume that a business can only devote sufficient resources (i.e. attention and service) to one group. Sub MMOs care most about new customers. Why? Because there aren't really any big spending customers; the sub model puts a natural cap on the amount you can get from one person. Hence, quantity is needed to profit. In contrast, F2P is all about getting and pandering to the whale hardcore players: you aren't getting money from a lot of people playing for free, so F2P has to pander to hardcore people dumping lots of cash.

Hence, for a sub game like FF14, there is just not enough upside to try to pander to the "raiders" and add more gates; if anything, SE should go drastically in the other direction if AS is as punitive as people make it out to be.

[MomomiMomi]

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

[MomomiMomi]

Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

[Zumi]

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

I wouldn't want to see FFXI style gearing in FFXIV. This is what kind of turned FFXI into a chat room and lead a lot of people to not do the new content. Horizontal progression is an oxymoron it doesn't really exist what FFXI had was vertical progression on a very small scale. What you already said the upgrades were minor. For example FFXI came out with a medium difficulty event Salvage. It had drop rates on nms in the zone in the range of around 1%. I actually knew people who killed this turtle NM 300+ times for the monk body. But the itemization was that a several of the pieces were worse had worse stats then gear from 6 years ago that dropped from Sky or hnms, however about half of those pieces of gear that were very slightly better maybe had 1-3 more attack or accuracy or 1% more haste something really small. The hard core playerbase in FFXI were like yea I am going to run Salvage daily even though it has 1% drop rates for those really small upgrades which may effect character damage by around 1% but its best in slot. However the more casual players were like I am not doing this it doesn't offer a big enough upgrade I am good with my sky gear from 6 years ago.

So for these players who didn't want to run the new content for the small upgrades they quit never bought the next expansion which was Wings of the Goddess. Some of them just logged in the game used it as a chat room. Many people will not do content with really small upgrades.

[MomomiMomi]

...

Here too you're talking about something entirely different. The drop rate has nothing to do with the gearing system. The rate of gear acquisition doesn't have to change from what we have now on FF14.

Changing to a "more options" system doesn't mean "We're going to make this exactly like FFXI so you're going to have a 1% drop rate to get this piece of gear."