Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind.

I'd imagine that's because they'd have to redo not only the character system, but something like character builds isn't something that would affect only those that want them, but it would also affect those that don't want it. A change like character builds changes it up for everyone, and not everyone has the time or desire to deal with that illusion of choice.

[Jetstream_Fox]

I'd imagine that's because they'd have to redo not only the character system, but something like character builds isn't something that would affect only those that want them, but it would also affect those that don't want it. A change like character builds changes it up for everyone, and not everyone has the time or desire to deal with that illusion of choice.

For the base game yes, it would impact everything, but as side content like PotD it wouldn't. In PotD the pomanders and floor effects both manipulate the way the basic dungeon is. If they developed side content using the same process and restrictions as PotD, then character builds would work well within the basic foundation of this game.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip

We have different ideas what constitutes horizontal progression. Simply having more options doesn't count as horizontal progression to me, it's just more options. When I think of Horizontal, I think of Monster Hunter, where any competent hunter has at least five different sets with varied elemental resistances and a handful of skills unlocked on each one.

[Kaurie]

We have different ideas what constitutes horizontal progression. Simply having more options doesn't count as horizontal progression to me, it's just more options. When I think of Horizontal, I think of Monster Hunter, where any competent hunter has at least five different sets with varied elemental resistances and a handful of skills unlocked on each one.

I simply think of it as a way to progress your character without necessarily going upwards in absolute strength (i.e. ilvl)

To support your point, Someone mentioned Monster Hunter earlier in the thread. All those armour, skill and customisation options. and yet I can go online in Monster Hunter Generations right now and, outside of outliers, I will be in a group with only "Gaijin Hunter/insert other youtube personality approved" gear.

This is the Illusion of choice in action.

I really dislike that term. In actuality, everything in the game is an illusion of choice, and illusion of choice spreads into one's daily life. That is, there is almost always a best choice, but the great thing about living in free countries in today's society is that we get to make choices - whether they are the best ones or not.

In terms of the game, sometimes one may make a suboptimal choice in order to improve their enjoyment of the game. In WoW at the moment, I am running a sub-optimal talent on my mage, because the optimal one is incredibly frustrating to use and ruins my enjoyment of the class (it's basically ley lines in FFXIV). Choices like these are great, and no one in WoW has said anything to me about it and my DPS is still competitive with everyone I group with.

While the 'best' ones may be required by top tier groups, they are not required by the general playerbase. Having no choice puts major limitations on how one can enjoy the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I simply think of it as a way to progress your character without necessarily going upwards in absolute strength (i.e. ilvl)

I really dislike that term. In actuality, everything in the game is an illusion of choice, and illusion of choice spreads into one's daily life. That is, there is almost always a best choice, but the great thing about living in free countries in today's society is that we get to make choices - whether they are the best ones or not.

In terms of the game, sometimes one may make a suboptimal choice in order to improve their enjoyment of the game. In WoW at the moment, I am running a sub-optimal talent on my mage, because the optimal one is incredibly frustrating to use and ruins my enjoyment of the class (it's basically ley lines in FFXIV). Choices like these are great, and no one in WoW has said anything to me about it and my DPS is still competitive with everyone I group with.

While the 'best' ones may be required by top tier groups, they are not required by the general playerbase. Having no choice puts major limitations on how one can enjoy the game.

And how exactly does this make the game more interesting? I can run a good portion of the content with Mind allocated and DEX gear. You're essentially asking for a complete character development overhaul despite fully acknowledging it is fundamentally pointless because at top tier content, you will be expected to optimize or you won't be taken. Why waste all their resources on something that doesn't actually accomplish anything? If they ever consider a similar direction, I would it to be impactful, not something I could (and likely would) ignore almost instantly.

[Kaurie]

And how exactly does this make the game more interesting? I can run a good portion of the content with Mind allocated and DEX gear. You're essentially asking for a complete character development overhaul despite fully acknowledging it is fundamentally pointless because at top tier content, you will be expected to optimize or you won't be taken. Why waste all their resources on something that doesn't actually accomplish anything? If they ever consider a similar direction, I would it to be impactful, not something I could (and likely would) ignore almost instantly.

I don't understand what your MND and DEX gear comment is about?

I did not acknowledge that. I acknowledged that world firsts will go for the 'best', but anything after that doesn't need it. This is the same as, say, group composition. However, once you pass the world firsts, any combination of 4 dps, 2 tanks and 2 heals is really viable in this game.

I do acknowledge that it would take a lot of overhaul to change fundamentals of the game to be the same as WoW. It doesn't need to be the exact same as WoW. I just used WoW as an example of why the "illusion of choice" is an idiotic term.

I think that the game developers could use their current system and provide choice, on-going progression beyond max level and/or horizontal progression without being the exact same as WoW and without having the issues that Yoshi mentioned in the interview and without forcing players to swap gear in combat.

They actually already have some of the systems in place, for example they could expand on both the cross class abilities and class -> jobs. When I first came here, I considered jobs to be "specs" of the classes. Then they abandoned it. They could go back to that, as the system is in place, and provide more jobs from classes. We could get our sword wielding DPS from a gladiator etc. Further, they could open up more abilities that can be cross classed, and actually have them be a decent choice (vs now which fully embraces the illusion of choice).

There is also the added materia which grants some level of horizontal progression, but in the most dull way possible. Perhaps materia could be added to be a bit more interesting and really change how things are played (instead of +crit, you have materia that changes skills, cooldowns or playstyle changes). Obtaining materia also feels rather grindy, more-so than it really needs to be/should be.

[Zojha]

I acknowledged that world firsts will go for the 'best', but anything after that doesn't need it.

Yes and no. You need to keep things performing within a tolerance threshold in order for them to be accepted. People will accept a monk over a ninja in their raid composition, but what about an arcanist in full STR gear with melee cross-class skills (Death Blossom, Fracture, Feint etc) that uses those skills instead of his class ones? An arcanist "as such" would already run risk of being kicked frequently. An arcanist that uses a bad build on top? No deal. The team is doing a pretty good job at keeping the jobs somewhat balanced with all the limitations, but I'm not sure how well they'd manage if they added builds on top. At least not if they were to add them for many jobs at once...

As for more class-based jobs - this actually reduces the amount of progression, because they no longer have separate levels. If you progress as scholar, you automatically progress as summoner in terms of level - it's only through gear that the two become separate and thus horizontal progression paths.

[Frederick22]

Keeping the original formula is fine, what should be done is put different and dynamic things within the formula.

PotD and Wonders Tails ( I hope ) is a good start.

[Nalien]

Keeping the original formula is fine, what should be done is put different and dynamic things within the formula.

PotD and Wonders Tails ( I hope ) is a good start.

The problem with both these pieces of content though, is the rewards... Why would I grind Palace of the Dead for i235 weapons, for example? XIV has become far too predictable in its patch cycles, and the result is just that I've lost interest in chasing item levels... Why am I going to put effort into farming "relevant" item levels, when I know full well a patch will drop and pretty much reset everyones progression? I didn't bother chasing Palace weapons, or Nidhogg ones, because I knew full well that 3.4 was en route with replacements...

That's great for new players, since they can catch up to a "relevant" level quickly, but for someone who wants to keep playing and enjoying this game? Character progression is just shallow and I've completely lost interest in it... That's why I constantly relink the Final Fantasy IX suggestion, it adds some depth to content, depth that is ultimately optional, or at the very least not something that can be probed... If I don't set Dragon Killer for a particular fight, there isn't really any way anyone can tell...

They don't even need to go that far... I think Palace of the Dead would have been the perfect place to introduce horizontal progression in a localized environment... Instead they did nothing with it, it's just a series of hallways with rapid vertical progression... They could easily have made it so the aetherpool arms and armor could gain special effects, that only work in Palace of the Dead, and I'd have enjoyed the content a whole lot more... I'd go in to get stronger in Palace of the Dead, rather than just going in to grind to the finish and reset my progress for a completely irrelevant i235 weapon... Here's hoping Deep Dungeons II really does improve upon Palace of the Dead, because unless Accursed Hoard takes me by surprise, and 51-200 are amazing, Palace of the Dead is really kind of lackluster...

Item levels really just do not appeal to me in the slightest anymore... Doesn't help that a lot of content simply doesn't benefit from higher item levels... It's either useless, or capped off for a lot of content... The only reason to care about Scripture gear is so that you can farm things like Sophia for item levels to... Do nothing with... Only reason I might care is for glamours, but the glamour system in this game is horrible, and even then... Glad I never bothered to farm Ravana for glamours, given 3.4 will let me buy superior versions off the market board... Item levels just don't do anything for me anymore, while a Final Fantasy IX system would give the perception of getting stronger... Filling out that list of stats by collecting all sorts of gear and grinding away would be rewarding IMO, I'd be limited in what I can set, and that would prevent someone with loads of free time from overpowering someone with none, but just filling that list would work for me...

[Frederick22]

snip

I understand your concern about PotD Nalien, but I only agree in the rewarding.

I think it was SE playing their safe card. Given how bad Diadem was, they didnt want to try something that could potencialy fail. Maybe they wanted to bring us this, and wait to the feedback to see if the next time they could make even higher risks.

Since we know this had much more succes than Diadem, I'm sure the 2nd part will be better. Sure the next deep dungeon will be even better.

Wonders tails, just from the first look and see how it works, is good. E very decent way and fun to go and do old content. Its not something like expert, it will take some time but no so much and with luck the rewards are amasing....dont tell me a ilvl180 HQ DoL/H with 5 guarante slots is not good xD

Scuadrons, may not be what people wanted. But we know that its comining, we know we will sson be able to do dutys with them. Now is just an advanced and more complex version of ventures. I dont see the issue, there is still couple details we dont know, but on what we know is that it will need our full attention depending which missions they do. The more you play, the fasters your squadrons will lvl up.

We still have to see what the new Diadem will bring, and we still have that hint of what Yoshi P said was planing to add something never seeing on a mmorpg.