Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[Welsper59]

Which is pretty pointless to bring up because the fantasy samurai is based on the idealized Samurai.

You really don't have much of a strong argument towards any of this, do you? I'll try to be very brief about it. Ronin are wanderers. They can be honorable or dishonorable, where in the case of fantasy, depends on how the creators want them to be. I brought up a passing thought that given naming conventions with XIV dev team, we might possibly see "Ronin" as our version of Samurai. Likely? Probably not, but possible because it is still a "samurai". If one were to think a little, they'd come to the conclusion that nothing about their RL history nor fantasy based history dictates they have to be a tank or DPS. The end. That was the end of that conversation on ronin.

[MomomiMomi]

You really don't have much of a strong argument towards any of this, do you? I'll try to be very brief about it. Ronin are wanderers. They can be honorable or dishonorable, where in the case of fantasy, depends on how the creators want them to be. I brought up a passing thought that given naming conventions with XIV dev team, we might possibly see "Ronin" as our version of Samurai. Likely? Probably not, but possible because it is still a "samurai". Nothing about their RL history nor fantasy based history dictates they have to be a tank or DPS. The end. That was the end of that conversation on ronin.

If we get Ronin, it won't be Samurai.

The thing you were replying to was about Samurai stabbing people in the back. This is dishonorable. This is what DPS do in our game.

And you brought up FFXI's Samurai before. They had a trait that gave them an attack boost when facing the enemy face to face. Good luck getting that to work in this game.

[Welsper59]

If we get Ronin, it won't be Samurai.

The thing you were replying to was about Samurai stabbing people in the back. This is dishonorable. This is what DPS do in our game.

Yeah, we're done here. Not even gonna humor this one. Although I will correct you on your backstab mention from the guy because actual reading is involved. He said specifically sword wielders are depicted as icons to depict a hero, not specifically samurai. As a followup reply from someone else, there's quite a lot of sword users that are very dishonorable, both in fantasy and in real history.

The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

And you brought up FFXI's Samurai before. They had a trait that gave them an attack boost when facing the enemy face to face. Good luck getting that to work in this game.

Couldn't help myself because you make it too easy lol. Sneak Attack exists here with NIN. Seriously, let's just call it here lol.

[Allistar]

Samurai DD, Red Mage support, Dancer support

[MomomiMomi]

Yeah, we're done here. Not even gonna humor this one.

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?

[Shippuu]

That's not a consistent tank trait though is it? Tanks always having a skill that is the strongest damage move, that is. Once again, I'm not saying they can't be tanks, I'm just arguing that one side does not overrule the other. By your view, you're literally implying that the SAM job from FFXI is not "Samurai", just because it is a DD/DPS, regardless of story tied to it, and not a tank. It can, and does, work both ways. Just as much as they can fit the tank role, so too can they fit the DPS. Blinding yourself to such thoughts is contrary to the very idea of Samurai lol.

We're arguing for the same point just from different sides now. I've never said Samurai can't be a DPS, and have only argued that it makes sense and has merit as a tank. That it should not be confined to a DPS (Not that it cannot be a DPS). The DPS role doesn't need to be argued for when it comes to designing new jobs as everything can be a DPS. It's the simplest role from a design standpoint and only needs one thing: Does it do Damage? Yes. That's it, that's all it takes to really decide on a DPS job. It's the tanks and healer jobs that need more consideration into how they are made etc. Especially in this game that has pretty narrow categories of Tanks and Healers.

And FFXI SAM is a terrible example to bring into this as it was designed as a Tank but due to poor foresight and design players didn't play it as such and the devs just went with it.

The thing is, this argument about SAM's role comes up all the time because when you look at things from a realistic viewpoint, many favorite and iconic Final Fantasy jobs can be DPS, but only a few fit the bill for Tanking roles. Samurai is one that easily fits into this game as a tank, with a common damage type shared with the other tanks, a history of wearing heavy armor like the other tanks, and a job fantasy that goes perfectly in line with being a tank. To take something that so easily fits into FFXIV's tanking mold and make it a DPS is a bit of a disservice to be quite honest. Other options for tanking jobs are either obscure, unpopular, or have little actual identity that is any way different then existing tanks. Then there's options that require potentially problematic situations when it comes to itemization/loot that would require extra development time to sort out.

When it comes to development often times the path of least resistance is the one taken. Samurai tank is the most logical one that takes this path of least resistance barring some new job they think up to be unique to FFXIV (but even that has issues of being potentially not as popular of a job or concept to help intice players to try tanking, which needs to be considered.)

[MomomiMomi]

Couldn't help myself because you make it too easy lol. Sneak Attack exists here with NIN. Seriously, let's just call it here lol.

A single attack that you do how often? Sneak Attack doesn't require you stand in front of your opponent full time, like XI's trait.

[Welsper59]

Are you saying then that attacking people in the back is not dishonorable?

All right, a question with some bite. Backstabs are generally not an honorable means to attack. But we are talking about combat in an RPG, you know where mechanics, gameplay fun, that sort of thing exists. Had this been in part of the storyline itself, like how NINs talked about honor (I think... it's been a while), the combat mechanics do not define the roles "honor". Such non-combat related things in a game do not matter to the philosophy or morals, only the actual story does.

We're arguing for the same point just from different sides now. I've never said Samurai can't be a DPS, and have only argued that it makes sense and has merit as a tank. That it should not be confined to a DPS. The DPS role doesn't need to be argued for when it comes to designing new jobs as everything can be a DPS. It's the simplest role from a design standpoint and only needs one thing: Does it do Damage? Yes. That's it, that's all it takes to really decide on a DPS job. It's the tanks and healer jobs that need more consideration into how they are made etc. Especially in this game that has pretty narrow categories of Tanks and Healers.

And FFXI SAM is a terrible example to bring into this as it was designed as a Tank but due to poor foresight and design players didn't play it as such and the devs just went with it.

The thing is, this argument about SAM's role comes up all the time because when you look at things from a realistic viewpoint, many favorite and iconic Final Fantasy jobs can be DPS, but only a few fit the bill for Tanking roles. Samurai is one that easily fits into this game as a tank, with a common damage type shared with the other tanks, a history of wearing heavy armor like the other tanks, and a job fantasy that goes perfectly in line with being a tank. To take something that so easily fits into FFXIV's tanking mold and make it a DPS is a bit of a disservice to be quite honest. Other options for tanking jobs are either obscure, unpopular, or have little actual identity that is any way different then existing tanks. Then there's options that require potentially problematic situations when it comes to itemization/loot that would require extra development time to sort out.

When it comes to development often times the path of least resistance is the one taken. Samurai tank is the most logical one that takes this path of least resistance barring some new job they think up to be unique to FFXIV (but even that has issues of being potentially not as popular of a job or concept to help intice players to try tanking, which needs to be considered.)

The XI SAM being a tank thing is actually not true, or at least not confirmed as far as I know. The devs did a lot of questionable things with the jobs there. I mean, THF had Perfect Dodge, which sounds like a GREAT tank 2hr... but THF clearly weren't designed for that at the beginning. The only one that was confirmed unintended was NIN being a tank, but originally released intending to be DPS. SAM in that game was following a lot of the conventions that the FF series gave it from before, as a heavy armor using powerhouse with attacks that debuff (though XI's version didn't really have much of that).

Given that there is a working example, intended or not, the pro-DPS crowd for it actually stronger ground to work on when it comes to game functionality. It really just comes down to the XIV devs balancing out what role is needed more, in light of current and future job releases. I stand corrected on the non-DPS view of it being impossible to fathom I assumed you had though.

A single attack that you do how often? Sneak Attack doesn't require you stand in front of your opponent full time, like XI's trait.

It was a useless trait in XI, outside of solo... so what's your point? No one uses it, just like tanks/dps/healers don't use a lot of skills/spells frequently here, as you so pointed out.

Edit: had to step away from the computer for a while, but I looked up the specific trait you were referring to (I rarely played SAM). Hoo boy... you never played XI did you? In that game, did you know that you had to build TP to do your main attacks and your TP building auto attacks weren't your primary source of damage? In other words, that function, for anyone who has played it would know, is designed to be used for Weapon Skills. What are those? They're abilities that you use once you've built up enough TP. So that means the SAM would, if they deemed it worth the risk, move to the front of the mob to do their WS and then run back to the side or behind the mob (though some HNMs made everyone stand in front... so yay full-time trait use). It was a different game from what you're thinking, given you used that as an example for the tank idea, and really doesn't apply. I actually feel stupid for not recalling that myself now too. Would have just ended that point right off the bat. Actual understanding isn't required here, I guess.

[Arasiel]

A lot of speculation about Dancer.. Is this even a job that has been mentioned to be added ever?

[ADVSS]

I have to agree with shippuu, samurai probably would be a best bet for a tank role if we are considering whats left in the final fantasy bank of jobs, hell dragoon couldve been one too based on its armor selection but they made it straight dps. They could do this to samurai but i feel like theyd be running thin of options for even more tanks down the road. I could see it being either or honestly,but assuming this topic is these are the three assumedly given choices, i feel like samurai over dancer or redmage as a tank just feels better. Dont get me wrong ive seen good dancer tank write ups in the past even, etc.

I have to believe that if we got a cloth wearing katana class they wont name it samurai, much like astrologian pretty much being time mage wasnt simply time mage, due to the fact that time mage was more of a debuffer dps with minor healing, so they gave it some iconic skills like gravity, quick(lightspeed) and made a healer out of it. I could see a dps katana weilder being implemented but itd be called blade master, ronin, or parovir or anything but samurai.
And if they make it a tank, i mean we got abilities like mercy stroke, whose to say it couldnt get a fell cleave potency attack that procs when an enemy is low? Idea being wear the enemy down by distracting as your allies nick at it, and finish it with a well drawn attack.