Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[Velhart]

You're basically asking the developers to take out something from non raiders and give nothing but a 3 month delay in return. In my view, if there's nothing for non raiders to do if you go for the trickle down effect for gear, that could affect subs as well. If you couldn't tell, people hate waiting. If people can't get raid gear along side savage raid gear, then what do you propose that the delay should offer other than a waiting game?

If Alex(Story Mode) was an actual Normal mode then the current gear progression currently would be fine. Tomestone and gear from that could line up. Savage having high gear ilvl that would give a nice slight advantage to hardcore raiders for the next tier set.

In all honesty though, increasing ilvl in raids in general will not solve any major issues the current structure has. Like I said before, all levels of play need to feel like they are progressing. The question is, how much do players who only like the easier content line up with those who enjoy the harder content. Players right now can go through hardships and stress to get ilvl240 gear, which the average midcore group takes at least the even and odd patch to complete. Or you can just grind tomestone gear and have a set with upgrade items given in a odd patch that is roughly the same time. Sure BiS can be taken into account, but the general idea is still there.

While above is true, at the end of the day, gear is truly a means to just accomplish content. It is not doubtful however that a lot of people put value in gear more than they should and a motivation to push forward. So while I don't completely agree with the mindset, I am very much a minority on that. So developers should look back and at least find out how to motivate people into harder content, because it sure isn't Story Mode.

[thegreatonemal]

Again, what is wrong with that? If I want to have a car, I get job and start working hard. If I don't want to work hard, I'm not getting a car no matter how much I want it. I really can't wrap my head around how people don't understand or don't agree with that simple rule.

In adequate progression structure you wouldn't be supposed to getting read-level gear in 2 years. Here you can get it in 3 months and even that is not enough! What the ...

Because progression of your character should not be locked behind just one gate that not everyone wants to do. to use your example we are all working and have cars you want nitro and some other nifty stuff on your car so you work harder or work more hours to get the money to buy it people shouldn't be stopped from buying a car because they don't want nitro.

[Vantol]

You're basically asking the developers to take out something from non raiders and give nothing but a 3 month delay in return.

In FFXI there was Chains of Promathia expansion pack, in which 80% of all content was locked behind savage-level fights, which you couldn't overgear or overlevel because of level-synch (which was never removed). And there was census, that after 2 years only ~40% of active playrbase who bought this expansion, were actually able to get there. I have been trying those fights for 1.5 year and never was able to complete them. And that was perfectly fine. Did I want to see whole new story, all those beautiful zones, new gear? Very much! But did I deserve it? No, I did not. Because my skills weren't good enough. That is how MMO should be structured.

If people can't get raid gear along side savage raid gear

Oh, what have become with players ... Am I that old?

Because progression of your character should not be locked behind just one gate that not everyone wants to do.

Yes, it should, that's like the whole point of "progression". You do easy stuff, you get weak gear. You do hard stuff, you get strong gear.

to use your example we are all working and have cars you want nitro and some other nifty stuff on your car so you work harder or work more hours to get the money to buy it people shouldn't be stopped from buying a car because they don't want nitro.

To use my example, considering how much time and effort takes dungeon farming and raid farming, it should be not nitro car against normal car, but personal jet plane against bicycle.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

In FFXI there was Chains of Promathia expansion pack, in which 80% of all content was locked behind savage-level fights, which you couldn't overgear or overlevel because of level-synch (which was never removed). And there was census, that after 2 years only ~40% of active playrbase who bought this expansion, were actually able to get there. I have been trying those fights for 1.5 year and never was able to complete them. And that was perfectly fine. Did I want to see whole new story, all those beautiful zones, new gear? Very much! But did I deserve it? No, I did not. Because my skills weren't good enough. That is how MMO should be structured.

This arguably worked tweleve years ago, when the MMO market was still in its infancy and choice essentially boiled downed to WoW and little else. Taking that same approach now would be financial suicide. It's the near equivalent of making Steps of Faith harder (even more so than pre-nerf) and telling players "if you can't beat it, you don't deserve to play Heavensward." Guess what happens? People either return the game in mass (see No Man's Sky) or abandon it entirely. There exists far too much variety nowadays in gaming as a whole to expect gamers to bother with massively gated content.

Oh, what have become with players ... Am I that old?

In a word, yes. Gaming became mainstream, and in doing so attracted a significantly larger audience. It's among the fastest growing industry in the world. With that comes people wanting greater accessibility. MMOs do not have the luxury of catering to specific niches because the entire genre is intended to encompass a multitude of player types. A game like say, Dark Souls, has no such limitations. It can sell itself exclusively on being an immensely challenging game because it only wants that audience. MMOs that aim for a niche generally do not perform well.

Yes, it should, that's like the whole point of "progression". You do easy stuff, you get weak gear. You do hard stuff, you get strong gear.

Here, we mostly agree. Savage should provide a leg up as it follows a different progression trajectory. Frankly, I think this is where they could experiment with small bits of horizontal progression to make Savage gear stand out. Problem, of course, is why cater to content only 1% of your audience does?

[Taika]

You're basically asking the developers to take out something from non raiders and give nothing but a 3 month delay in return.

Don't you think the "non-raiders" would actually spend that time doing things like the previous Savage raid, older extremes etc. instead of nothing? Since that content has been made easier and put in Duty Finder for accessibility and does not require a static or having studied the strategies perfectly to be able to complete the fights. What would be wrong in spending that time farming gear from that content (which already has a token system similar to Alexander normal except it's better since you get 1 token drop per win for sure every week) instead of just farming the two expert dungeons?

In my opinion, if we need to keep something similar to the current system, the perfect rotation would be:

1. New Savage tier raid + New Extreme + 2 new dungeons with relatively relevant gear
2. New 24 person casual raid + 2 new dungeons with relatively relevant gear (story mode of the current Savage raid here if there really has to be one)
3. New Savage tier raid + New Extreme + dungeons + the (1.) Savage and Extreme are nerfed and moved to Duty Finder so that those who haven't done them yet can experience them and farm the gear
2. New 24 person casual raid etc.

[thegreatonemal]

snip

Unlike ARR where you could ignore mechanics and just burn down everything HW is not like that all of these past fights (except Ravana) require you to do the mechanics, failing to do so means you die instantly/kill other people/wipe the raid. The echo does not help in these fights if people don't know the dance they wont clear. All overgearing does is making the dps check sections of the fight easier. Maybe 4.0 will change that but i doubt it the design concept for ex trials and savage raids has changed from 2.0

[Taika]

Unlike ARR where you could ignore mechanics and just burn down everything HW is not like that all of these past fights (except Ravana) require you to do the mechanics, failing to do so means you die instantly/kill other people/wipe the raid. The echo does not help in these fights if people don't know the dance they wont clear. All overgearing does is making the dps check sections of the fight easier. Maybe 4.0 will change that but i doubt it the design concept for ex trials and savage raids has changed from 2.0

But like in previous Coil turns, the developers are able to adjust the fight mechanics while they move them in Duty Finder. That's not really an issue.

[Vantol]

But like in previous Coil turns, the developers are able to adjust the fight mechanics while they move them in Duty Finder. That's not really an issue.

I'm sure they will, plus level unsynch. That's why being 3rd-4th to clear Coil on my server, this time I decided to not even touch savage. What for? I will be able to clear it in 4.0 with little to no effort in 1 day.

Same goes for bird farming.

[Taika]

I'm sure they will, plus level unsynch. That's why being 3rd-4th to clear Coil on my server, this time I decided to not even touch savage. What for? I will be able to clear it in 4.0 with little to no effort in 1 day.

Same goes for bird farming.

Which is exactly why I think it would be a good idea to get rid of the tome gear and normal mode gear: those who want to get into the new highest level content right away would benefit from having done the previous tier when it was fresh, and at the same time it would still be valuable (because of rewards, not only the story) content when it goes in Duty Finder for those who would rather do it without a static or party finder and when it's not so demanding. It's really important that there's a wide variety of content for different difficulty levels with relevant rewards for those who are currently running that content.

[thegreatonemal]

But like in previous Coil turns, the developers are able to adjust the fight mechanics while they move them in Duty Finder. That's not really an issue.

They already did that they just lowered some damage the fights have pretty much been the same