Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[Velhart]

snip

It can just use WoW's raid structure. You go through a seamless raid, but saves after you beat a major boss. You can still queue in DF at a certain point and drop you off at the last check point. This felt the same way in Coil, you felt like you were going through four separate instances per raid. The only real issue with this idea is you are allowed to do the fight again but no chests drop. If this wasn't implemented it would be fine.

I can live with the instances though. We definitely need more unique content in raids. SE should look at Wrath of the Lich King expansion from WoW on how to make good raids. Naxxramas, Ulduar, and Icecrown Citadel in particular. I hate to keep pulling the WoW card, but they at least know how to make a good raid structure despite having their own controversial easy mode in there. They at least didn't add that in the expense of midcore/hardcore players. Really, copy/paste their structure would do wonders for their game.

[ToppeHatte]

The irony of adding multiple difficulty modes to appease the entire player base is that now the hardcore and casual seem to be at each other's throats, blaming the other party for the state of raiding. The unfortunate truth of raiding is that it's going to be entirely impossible to please the entirety of players, despite that being what they seem to be striving for. Even if they went back to Coil's structure and difficulty, the hardcore raiders would be getting the shaft since, sans the final floor of a tier, those raid tiers tended to (for the most part) be categorized as midcore content, along the lines of an EX primal.

I don't believe locking story behind difficult content is particularly fair (I know this is a big motivator for some people, but I would argue for example that Coil's story is almost mandatory reading for the MSQ, especially with the revelation that it'll be referenced in 3.4) and I ALSO don't believe that gear is sufficient enough of a motivator for raiding as-is, since it's only purpose currently is to simply help you down the fights faster.

I'm in favor of keeping the two difficulty tier system, as I think the story mode benefits it's audience. The rewards for completing savage mode, however, need to be rethought completely.

[AstreaTrinity]

What i would like to see them do is go back to one tier again, but add at least 3 more bosses into the setup to sort of ease into the increasing difficulty of each fight

1st boss: Difficulty Equivalent to A4 / M4(normal) could be DF'd [Drops Jewelery and Belts]

2nd boss: Difficulty higher than A4 / M4 but lower than A1S / M1S [Drops Feet]

3rd boss: AS1 / MS1 difficulty [Drops Hands]

4th boss: Slightly Less difficult than MS2 (I hate trash pack bosses so gtfo AS2) [Drops Head]

5th boss: Difficulty mirroring or slightly below AS3 [Drops Legs]

- Might be too much of a jump between these 2

6th boss: M4S difficulty [Drops Chest]

7th boss: Above A4S and M4S difficulty, something only the truly determined can beat [Drops weapons and and item that can augment raid gear to an even higher ilevel considerably better than tome gear]

- The augment might be too much of a stretch due to them having to balance the next raid tier around who and who doesnt have it

In terms of story though in all honesty i dont think anything is going to come close to Coil, i would much rather work for it, but Alexander hasnt really given a story worth working for yet to me

[Eothas]

Clear rates are so low because of the heavy reliance on statics. the first thing we say to someone interested in raiding is not "hop in the raid finder for a phase one learning and go from there" but find a static.

I hate the "Static" mentality so much, this shatters my will to raid.

Statics are obviously the easier route to clear any content, though they are not required in my opinion. I have played some unpopular games (RO for example) in the past and some content required as much synergy as savage raids. I always did them with my friends, only listening to them in TS or not listening at all. If anything super hard content needs only one player leading in a voice chat.

Having this pressure of joining a TS/Discord/Etc... room every X days a week just holds me back, this lowers my skill ceiling, this doesn't help me in the slightest, unless there is a really, really, really complex mechanic that a voice would actually be helpful. (Some players in the first week of 3.2 had the audacity to say that towers in SephEX needed voice chat, when in reality you just needed a simple macro).

I have the skill. I have the time. But I won't look for a static to raid and I'm sure there is others like me in this game. if lowering the savage difficult is enough to decrease the static mentality, even if just a little, so be it.

[Nalien]

I'm in favor of keeping the two difficulty tier system, as I think the story mode benefits it's audience.

See, as someone who is arguably casual, I think the Normal difficulty is a detriment to the story... It robs the encounters of much of their impact... Rather than building a relationship with the bosses through repeated failures, I just don't care about them...They get blown through and forgotten... I guess Brute Justice is an exception though, but he is practically cheating by having Soken work his magic on the fight... I find ADS more memorable than the rest of Alexander though, just because my first encounter with the damn ball was more memorable than anything Alexander has offered, solely due to the challenge...

I really don't see much issue with locking story behind such a challenge, like I said earlier, that challenge is already temporary... An expansion comes along, we grow several levels and item levels, and suddenly difficult content isn't quite as difficult... Ultimately I don't even see an issue with the whole "Only 5% of the playerbase has cleared this" argument, to me that translates to "95% of the playerbase hasn't beaten the game and still has reason to keep playing", not quite true for Alexander, given Savage is a rewardless challenge, but it's true enough for Coil... That story is still there, and it is easier to get to than ever... IDK, perhaps I just have an outdated mindset... I don't see why all content has to be consumed before the next patch... For me that just creates a shallow world, and that's what MMOs should be about; Building a virtual world... By spoon feeding me all the story instantly, there is nothing really left for me to go out and experience... There's no "One day I'll do X!", because I already did X yesterday... I'm fine with not beating something today and coming back to it later... That's part of what keeps me playing...

The only thing left to hook me besides, is the progression system, and with item levels and itemization being what it is... I wouldn't say XIV has one at endgame... Vanity fluff becomes the closest thing to true progression, and then something like the cash shop becomes slightly more intolerable... Cash shops cross a line when they become pay to win, and when you start to see item levels as worthless, while the true endgame is collecting all the minions... That cash shop is pure pay to win...

[Sparktacus]

the problems that raiding in this game faces is more community inflicted than design choice inflicted.

No, this simply is not true and it's rather a large exaggeration to blame the entirety of the raiding populous because the developers are making awful decisions that don't reflect popular opinon of that raiding subset.

This mindset you have is part of the problem not the solution.

[Hayward]

-snip-

I entirely reject this line of thinking. This is the mentality that made Chains of Promathia and later expansions in XI much less impactful than they should have been. Locking people out of expansion story content through "challenging" (read: static-only) content is the absolute last thing the devs should even ponder. That 95% of players in your example are more likely to wait for content they can do and for SE to eventually dial back the difficulty of said story content. The clear rate of CoP was abysmal for years and many players simply abandoned all hope of finishing the story, if they even bothered with Promyvion. There's no way in the world Team Yoshi should even consider making 4.0 content as difficult as that just so a small number of people can strut around like peafowl.

Weeping City was challenging without being cheap (i.e. one-hit KO mechanics that can't be stopped or mitigated, AoE attacks that take up 90% of the field and go off in <1.5 seconds) or unforgiving to the point of frustration. If certain posters had their way, this raid would be nigh-on unplayable by anyone who doesn't have cat-like reflexes and a DARPA-grade internet connection. If SE takes Weeping City as a template for future endgame content, I'd be more than satisfied.

[BlitzAceRush]

See, as someone who is arguably casual, I think the Normal difficulty is a detriment to the story... It robs the encounters of much of their impact... Rather than building a relationship with the bosses through repeated failures, I just don't care about them...They get blown through and forgotten... I guess Brute Justice is an exception though, but he is practically cheating by having Soken work his magic on the fight... I find ADS more memorable than the rest of Alexander though, just because my first encounter with the damn ball was more memorable than anything Alexander has offered, solely due to the challenge...

I really don't see much issue with locking story behind such a challenge, like I said earlier, that challenge is already temporary... An expansion comes along, we grow several levels and item levels, and suddenly difficult content isn't quite as difficult... Ultimately I don't even see an issue with the whole "Only 5% of the playerbase has cleared this" argument, to me that translates to "95% of the playerbase hasn't beaten the game and still has reason to keep playing", not quite true for Alexander, given Savage is a rewardless challenge, but it's true enough for Coil... That story is still there, and it is easier to get to than ever... IDK, perhaps I just have an outdated mindset... I don't see why all content has to be consumed before the next patch... For me that just creates a shallow world, and that's what MMOs should be about; Building a virtual world... By spoon feeding me all the story instantly, there is nothing really left for me to go out and experience... There's no "One day I'll do X!", because I already did X yesterday... I'm fine with not beating something today and coming back to it later... That's part of what keeps me playing...

The only thing left to hook me besides, is the progression system, and with item levels and itemisation being what it is... I wouldn't say XIV has one at endgame... Vanity fluff becomes the closest thing to true progression, and then something like the cash shop becomes slightly more intolerable... Cash shops cross a line when they become pay to win, and when you start to see item levels as worthless, while the true endgame is collecting all the minions... That cash shop is pure pay to win...

I normally don't post in forums so pardon the post count.
I get where you're coming from and even agree, just not for an MMO, I played and enjoy the soul games, so I can understand that feeling of achievement for beating something that kicked my butt for a few hours/days (Nameless King I'm looking at you) but I feel in an MMO setting, locking story behind something that's not just difficult to do but DIFFICULT to do is a bad idea, let me explain.
Now I'm going to use Dark Souls as a comparison, I know one's a mostly single player experience and the other is an MMO but I'm talking strictly difficulty and highlighting a point so please bare with me.

So as I said above I can understand wanting to work for something, even story, in Dark souls I really got a sense of accomplishment for hard thought advances, but in an MMO I don't think that works as well for several reasons.
Firstly, the difficulty is not just in beating the encounter, it's also in getting 7 other people who you can raid with, with time zones and schedules not always an easy thing, so that's the first thing you need to fight and you've not even made it inside the raid yet.

So you finally find yourself a static and get on inside, the next thing you need to ask yourself is, why are you here? Its a more important question that you think, lets say they return to gating story behind raids without a normal difficulty and someone wants to clear it simply to see the story. They join a static and no matter how frustrated they get, they stick with it and manage to clear it, OK great, one person gets some nice loot and the guy got his story, now that we can do it we can farm it for other peoples loot. Wait... but why would the story guy want to? He only wanted to see the story, he endured and succeeded, why would he want to keep farming it? What's his/hers motivation to stay now? That's a problem in of itself is if the story is the only reason and you refused to youtube it, whats their motivation to keep raiding? If they only wanted the story there went their motivation.

Then there's the fact in games like Dark Souls if you get totally stuck there are ways you can keep pushing things in your favour till you over gear/level the encounter, boss unbeatable? You can pretty much sit in the area farming souls till you over level it enough to win, pretty much meaning if you can't beat it you're not totally stuck. In an MMO you can only get so powerful while a raid is relevant and it's never going to be to the point where you can walk all over it. I fell telling someone "Don't worry, if you can't beat the raid, just wait 2 years till an expiation comes out and you can walk all over the content." Isn't the best way to deliver story.

Clear and participation rates do need to be considered, both from a developer and design position as on the one hand, if only 5% (arbitrary number) has cleared something a developer is going to wonder if the time, money and resources were worth it. Then from a design standpoint they're going to ask themselves should we really put a lot behind something so few can get to? If too few are even attempting it and even less are beating it, it throws up flags to developers than somethings gotta give and locking story behind something like this will just cause less people to try and more to look up what they're missing. Having normal and savage helps them justify the content and savage is supposed to provide the challenge while normal ensures all those assets and story they produced are not wasted by so few plaything through them.

So, while I disagree with you that story should be locked behind raiding, I do not think challenging content should be without it's rewards, the problem comes in the form of what? as many people want someone different.
For some the challenge is enough, just knowing they did something others could not is all they need, for some it's vanity, titles, mounts and minions, something they can show off and be one of the few to have for a while. For others its stronger gear that puts them steps above the rest and I'm sure more I'm missing, but for the moment lets talk about some of the ones I mentioned in a little more detail.

Challenge first, for those who simply enjoy overcoming a good fight as reward itself, there's little more you can give them beyond better designed fights, while I don't raid I've heard people say that perhaps Alex was lacking in this regard on some bosses so threes something for the developers to consider.

Next let's talk about glamour, now I'll be honest I do enjoy collecting glamour and while I'd be sad to see some armour set just in raids, I'm not against it, something cool that you only get from Savage would be a nice badge of honour, though this can be extended to more mount/minions and titles exclusive to Savage. This would be a nice reward for the effort provided and help Savage raiders stand out a bit for their effort.

Finally let's talk item level, this ones tricky as while I'm not against those who conquer the best content getting a nice power bump for their troubles I can see how it could bleed into other content, though I understand raiders wanting to get more power from the effort and even be able to be more prepared/have and edge going into the next raid because they were able to get the last one on farm. However if raiders gear was a much higher bump and as raid runs are sold while the content is still relevant I could see the party finder full of "Farming bird, must have the uber raid weapon or kick" We already get this, but given gear with a substantial power spike that most can't get would only compound the issue, I don't mean to feel raiders should be punished for something that has nothing directly to do with them, but it is something that should be considered.

To this end I propose a compromise, something that hopefully would give the Savage raiders the just rewards they crave while not upsetting or not creating an imbalances in the game as a result.
Step 1: Give Savage their own gear set, either a fancy glowy, recolour-able version of normal with more bells and whistles or just their whole own set only gotten from inside Savage.
Step 2: Make it 30 item levels (again arbitrary number) higher and superior stats to anything you can get elsewhere, strong enough to really help them in the next raid release if they earn the gear.
Step 3: Treat it like PvP gear, it only gets step 2 inside raids, outside it's stats are equal to the highest non raid obtainable gear in game. (Though it could keep it's item level for the "look at me" factor)
I feel this would leave story and seeing raids to those not into raiding, while giving the Savage raiders something worth while to strive for, the ability to stand out for their work, something tangible to strive for making the next raid a little bit easier for their hard work, but not let the big power boost negatively effect other parts of the game.

That's my thoughts and attempt at giving raiders something more substantial to work for while trying to take into account the bigger picture of the game as a whole, if you've read this far, thank you for taking the time to read my post.

[thegreatonemal]

No, this simply is not true and it's rather a large exaggeration to blame the entirety of the raiding populous because the developers are making awful decisions that don't reflect popular opinon of that raiding subset.

This mindset you have is part of the problem not the solution.

Most of them are community inflicted they are the primary reason why people don't raid.

[thegreatonemal]

No, this simply is not true and it's rather a large exaggeration to blame the entirety of the raiding populous because the developers are making awful decisions that don't reflect popular opinon of that raiding subset.

This mindset you have is part of the problem not the solution.

Most of them are community inflicted they are the primary reason why people don't raid.