Thread: Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Normal mode shouldn't really give gear at all, the problem right now is that NM has more incentive than savage and people become burned out on NM before they get into savage. Sure, put the story in NM so everyone can experience it, but don't make it part of the gear progression because this will make splitting them redundant by putting it on the gear ladder before savage. NM primals don't give anything, and that system seems to have worked, plus there are ways to keep people running content without putting it on the gear progression ladder (such as relic grind)

The problem with this is that players are forced to waste endless hours in there slaving for the gear and if you removed that many would be "less entertained".

The crafted gear has the same item level so it could be interesting to remove the gear from Normal (make it tomestone worthy instead) and maybe just add materials for the crafted gear in there and if the new dungeons were made part of the progression - gave i245 gear etc - it could also make the dungeon drops relevant at the same time.

It's an interesting idea which could give savage unique gear without additional development costs. Tho casuals are bound to riot. :3

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The low clear raids compared to japan and the fact that joining a static is pretty much the only way you'll complete a raid fight.

Low clear rates have a lot less to do with the community and a lot more to do with bad developer design. And again, designing content in such a way that requires an incredible skill ceiling again, is bad DEVELOPER design. It has nothing to do with the community.

Look I am sorry if you had a bad run in with some end-gamer but there are bad eggs in every "community" in this game be it crafters, people leveling, and people who have no interest in end game. Do not lump this all up as "the community's fault". Without the community there would be no game.

I also wanted to add that Yoshi has stated that the raiding culture in Japan and the NA is a bit different. In Japan they raid because the challenge is in front of them, in NA/EU we raid because of the incentives, in a nutshell. However, I have said before I don't think that is 100% accurate as I have played another game that had a huge JP population and they were just as reward hungry as us. You don't camp a 72 hour nm just because it's there. My last point is that clear rates for savage across the board are the worst of probably any mmo, even in Japan.

Gear that is an ilevel upgrade over the last Savage tier should not exist in normal mode. Catering to casuals in this regard is hurting the game a lot.

It basically destroyed gear progression in this game and made progression raiding a lot more expensive or grindy. Now, on top of every odd-patch being a catch-up patch, every even patch is a complete ilevel reset. At least before, the gear you got from the previous raid tier was useful until it was replaced by the new raid / tomestone gear. Now all your old gear is instantly replaced by crafted and Alex normal gear.

What this also does is instantly kill raid content upon clear. After your first clear of A8S there is no reason to ever do it again aside from the minion. There is no point to raiding anymore. Many A8S clearing statics I knew broke up because of how pointless farming is. Even if you farm for BiS gear, it's instantly replaced the next even patch.

There is also no point in going back to do old content after the new content is released and this shortens the lifespan of your content. In reality, while A8S might be too hard for a MC group even with full i240, it'd probably be a reasonable challenge with a few pieces of new tomestone gear.

Having a Normal mode is perfectly fine. But, SE's implementation in 3.X has been embarrassingly awful.

It's purely an excuse to say that rotations and CDs are the reason why we don't have an isolated practice mode.

The real reason that's obvious to anyone with a brain is that they want to artificially lengthen progression. Since the dawn of raiding people have constantly complained about CDs not resetting on a wipe. Only now are we finally getting it -- some 3 years later -- despite it being one of the most asked for QoL changes.

Really, are you also going to believe Yoshida's moral degradation argument for why GC restrictions still exist in PvP? Because I have a bridge to sell you if you do.

People want a practice mode because they want to practice mechanics. Obviously normal progression would still be used to map out your GCDs and CDs. But, for a lot of mechanics, familiarity is the most important thing and you don't get that without seeing it enough. Rather than waste hours repeating P1-6 of A8S just to practice P7, you would shorten the progression cycle of a mid-core static by weeks if they could just practice P7 until they were comfortable with the timing of mechanics before going back to regular progression to map out their GCDs and CDs.

Originally Posted by Lorielle

What i don't understand is why people are hung up on "needing a static". This is what PUGs are for. Wanna know something? When I was in Tonberry, I cleared Final Coil in a PUG. My friend in DF. There was no need for a static. Just people that knew what they were doing and willing to stick it out. The problem is the community here is too impatient.

This is the most important difference between a static and a pug.

In a static you talk about times when you want to do the content and then you practise the entire time you agreed to play together this content. Even if its sunday and everything goes wrong. You do practise till the sheduled duration is done.

In most cases PUGs don't last for long. After a few wipes they abadon.

If PUGs could work with the same discipline like a static, PUGs would be way more successfull. One thing to start would be to clearly state in the PF the time to start and for how long. Only players that agree to this should join and then stay the time, even if its running not that good.

Originally Posted by KarstenS

This is the most important difference between a static and a pug.

In a static you talk about times when you want to do the content and then you practise the entire time you agreed to play together.

In most cases PUGs don't last for long. After a few wipes they abadon.

If PUGs could work the same way together like a static, PUGs would be way more successfull.

This is hardly the most important thing and is merely a part of a bigger picture.

The biggest difference between a static and a PuG is in the names. A static is consistent. Consistent raid times. Consistent personnel. Consistent strategy. Consistent progression. And, when you are finally going for that clear, hopefully consistent execution.

You play a healer. You should know how different it is healing a PuG tank compared to a static tank even if it's the same fight. You know which CDs your tank is going to use and are familiar with their damage intake. As such, you can find your DPS windows or know when and how to conserve MP if you need to. Over prolonged progression, content changes into memorization and not improvisation.

The problem with a lot of Midas is that it's just not PuG friendly when you have a disorganized PF structure like the NA/EU servers. There are a lot of different ways to handle the preys in A5S, blaster mirages / brawler attachments / vortexer in A6S, jails and tank swaps in A7S, and basically all of A8S.

The main difference is a static can establish a consistent strategy and build slowly towards a clear over weeks.

You will join one PuG group, practice for a lockout or maybe more, join another PuG group and encounter a different strategy and see your progression reset.

When dealing with easier content like EX Trials, this is less of an issue because the mechanics are more straight forward and generally don't have as many variations. While stuff like P1 AoE spreading or Earth Shaker baiting in Sephirot have variations in how they're handled, there isn't that much nuance involved.

Why JP servers have success with PF is their strategies are set in stone. They don't care if your way is more efficient or if you have the skill to do things differently. You shut the hell up and do your job according to the established strategy. That way, even PuGs have a consistent strategy and might as well have consistent personnel because you're only just a part of the set plan.

So, when you constantly have your progression reset and wasted in the NA / EU communities, it leads to people having a very short fuse. You can only join so many "aim to clear" PFs that constantly wipe in early phases before you start to grow impatient. If I had a dollar every time someone said a variation of the words "sorry, I'm not used to doing it this way" or messed up a mechanic with varied execution I'd be a very rich man.

And TBH, while I greatly appreciate what content creators bring to this community, they are partially to blame for this situation. You have MTQ with her strat, Xeno with his strat, Solitude with their strat, DnT with their strat, Elysium with their strat, a different strat posted to Reddit, and another variation posted to Blue Gartr. A static can consolidate things into something that consistently works for them. A PuG will just wipe while not knowing they're all following different strategies.

My biggest issues with the endgame design of this game is that (1) the game doesn't really motivate the players to do the highest level of endgame and (2) much of the content doesn't stay relevant for long. I think one simple step into right direction would be to remove the tomestone gear entirely. Then the players would actually have to do the content for the content drops (extreme primals or Savage or relic for weapons, Savage or Weeping City or dungeons for gear). Raiders would have a real benefit from raid gear when entering a new patch, while those who haven't yet completed the previous Savage tier would be able to get on that while it's been nerfed (and would have a reason to do so). The current mode of being able to get up-to-date gear by grinding 2 easy dungeons over and over and over and completing 1 easy 24-person raid a week is not a well designed base for endgame gear progression.

Similarly, the normal mode of Alexander shouldn't drop gear that's better than previous tier Savage gear, as Brian_ posted:

Originally Posted by Brian_

Gear that is an ilevel upgrade over the last Savage tier should not exist in normal mode. Catering to casuals in this regard is hurting the game a lot.

It basically destroyed gear progression in this game and made progression raiding a lot more expensive or grindy. Now, on top of every odd-patch being a catch-up patch, every even patch is a complete ilevel reset. At least before, the gear you got from the previous raid tier was useful until it was replaced by the new raid / tomestone gear. Now all your old gear is instantly replaced by crafted and Alex normal gear.

What this also does is instantly kill raid content upon clear. After your first clear of A8S there is no reason to ever do it again aside from the minion. There is no point to raiding anymore. Many A8S clearing statics I knew broke up because of how pointless farming is. Even if you farm for BiS gear, it's instantly replaced the next even patch.

There is also no point in going back to do old content after the new content is released and this shortens the lifespan of your content. In reality, while A8S might be too hard for a MC group even with full i240, it'd probably be a reasonable challenge with a few pieces of new tomestone gear.

Having a Normal mode is perfectly fine. But, SE's implementation in 3.X has been embarrassingly awful.