Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[yexie]

If you don't want to pony up the skill and time to see the raid story when it's current, you should just wait until you can do the fights on your terms rather than dragging down the entire game to meet your play style.

Can't you see that it's not always about not WANTING to pony up? For some people it's just plain impossible because of lack of time, lack of statics and other things.
We all pay the same amount each month, so why are you more priviliged than others that just simply CAN NOT put the effort into endgame the way it is needed? I personally would LOVE to put the effort into endgame and be "up there", but I simply can't put that much effort into the game. And that's not dragging down the entire game, it is dragging down the game for ~10% of the playerbase maybe? By meeting YOUR play style it would mean gating story and gear for ~90% of the playerbase.
And no I don't want things to be handed to me on a silver platter, it often happens to me that I find the "casual content" too easy or I find it just right because you actually need to put some effort into it and you wipe a few times and I see so many people cry and whine about it until it gets dumbed down and I dislike that too.

So please, try not to see all casuals as lazy people who aren't willing to put in the effort and want things handed to them on a silver platter. There is a reason there is only a small amount of people doing endgame, not everybody has the means to put that much effort into a game.

Like Sandpark said:

Raids are the least popular endgame not only because the difficulty is hard.It requires perfect harmony in skill and forming same schedule/skill competent groups for long play sessions on a regular basis.

The point here is watching the metrics. If 4-15% of the playerbase is getting new story completing raids and the rest aren't. Something is amiss. In a sub based game, isn't the point of a dev to try and get the most players possible having a reason to log in? If it's not, then the game should go full on hardcore and then they would have a couple of hundred thousand that never quit, but everyone else not in that category would fly the coop.

Normal should be pretty difficult, but not Savage difficult, more lenient towards pugs and mistakes. Savage should have the BiS and require statics, guild type content but just marginally better or you get a cry for content from both sides. The super elite saying the rest of the game is too easy and the other side who says the game is too hard.

I get that Alex savage not having any new story to it was a HUGE downer and it shouldn't be that way, it should have had a continued story of normal mode and something like a minion or such in the end to show "hey I did it!", and it should still have the highest iLvl gear rewards, because they really are not needed outside of savage.
But you simply cannot keep ~90% of the playerbase MONTH behind story and gear (lookswise) because all of us paying folks have a right to enjoy and get the "new look" feel when a new patch comes out and not be punished simply because our personal circumstances or the circumstances on our server doesn't allow us to get into the real endgame.

For the future they need to give savage a new story to discover or some sort of deeper insight... and a little more than just an achievement in the end. Heck they give PVP more than that.

And to what you said about Yoshi as a producer earlier:
I'm pretty sure he get's it, but if he would do all the things you want, he would be a much much worse producer than people make him out to be now, he HAS to view every problem from ALL angles and he has to go by what the MAJORITY of the playerbase is able to achieve, if he would do it any other way he would completely fail at his job. He has to find a balance.

[SinisterJointss]

I have been raid logging for the last 6-7 months, I could really care less who is standing around idylshire.

Higher ilvl gear is not going to change this for you. It actually would make it worse because all the rest of the content becomes that much more faceroll. You need to face the fact that the only reason you want higher ilvl gear is epeen, ego, desire. You want to feel above the rest when you are wearing that gear. You want people to see you, you want to stand out. You dont actually need it and it would only make the next raids that much easier.

It applies to non-raiders too so don't think I am singling you out, I'm just pointing out some false reasoning.

I used to raid, I know how it works. Although in other mmo's you ACTUALLY NEEDED the gear to progress to further tiers of raids. Here you dont, thats why savage gets cleared so fast. So I dont believe this nonsense that raiders need higher ilvl gear. There are other ways to reward savage players than power.

I'm by no means saying that raiding in FFXIV is where it should be, because its not. Why should it matter that raiders have higher ilvl gear than non raiders? It shouldn't, just like it shouldnt matter that non-raiders have similar ilvl gear as raiders (because that doesnt matter either by content design)


The problem with current content is longevity. Raids, dungeons, and 24man's... It applies to all areas of content. There isnt enough content that is lasting. There isnt enough content that is meaningful and there isnt enough content that keep people's attention. Coil was GREAT implementation of content. It was the perfect difficulty for the norm. Regardless of people that bitched about not seeing it. The raiding system in general needs an overhaul, it shouldnt just be - DODGE DODGE DODGE- there needs to be elements in raids that stump people, ones that they cant and wont figure out right away

[yexie]

You know how unmotivating it is to actually log on and play when I feel like all the rewards are homogenized anyways? That's the HUGE problem this game is facing, one that will not be fixed until ALL rewards in this game are intrinsically rewarding. The only way we can make all rewards, from casual to HC content alike, more compelling is starting from the top down. You can't make casual and midcore rewards meaningful without also making savage rewards meaningful.

The tome grind feels like slavery because it's intrinsically unrewarding. It's unrewarding because every few months, everyone's character progression is homogenized.

I agree with you here.
But keep in mind how unmotivated people get if they see things that they know they will NEVER be able to get anyhow... it's always a two-sided blade.

I don't know what kind of rewards would be satisfying to you that would not make casuals feel like they are lesser human beings (exaggerating here) for not being able to clear the content (This is a serious question, I would like to know what kind of reward there could be to make endgame feel worthwhile). For me it's fine if endgame gets higher iLvl, I would have a problem with it though if the gear was completely unavailable to me glamourwise just because my life or my server makes it impossible for me to find the time or the right group to get through the content.

[Nalien]

Higher ilvl gear is not going to change this for you. It actually would make it worse because all the rest of the content becomes that much more faceroll.

Part of the problem there is item level inflation... I mean, Lv60 starts out at i150, then before 3.1 even came around, we had i210... We could actually have a much tighter progression up the item levels if SE wasn't so set on making everyone the same every other patch... If you don't hand casuals raider tier progression, then you don't have a situation where Scriptures are going to outclass everything we currently have... You don't rise through the item levels at a fairly alarming level, and content maintains its difficulty for slightly longer... Heck, they don't even have to make these jumps 10 point differences... We had i220 > i230 > i240, for example, but i220 > i225 > i230 is just as viable...

Content is also just designed terribly, at least IMO... I still remember the good old days of 2.0, clearing Titan in i50 trash... Oh, I was carried? Yeah, no... I wasn't the healer eating dirt all fight... I swear, minimum item level required just translates to "You could probably do this 10 or 20 points lower, and still lose a DPS" ever since... Not sure how well that applies to more recent content though, but I do recall doing A3 with 2 or 3 people locked out fairly early into 3.0... Of course they still took the loot, because XIV has to reward everyone, even if they literally didn't participate in the run... Earning gear? Such a tired and outdated concept...

[zosia]

Can't you see that it's not always about not WANTING to pony up? For some people it's just plain impossible because of lack of time, lack of statics and other things.
We all pay the same amount each month, so why are you more priviliged than others that just simply CAN NOT put the effort into endgame the way it is needed? It's not dragging down the entire game, it is dragging down the game for ~10% of the playerbase maybe? By meeting YOUR play style it would mean gating story and gear for ~90% of the playerbase.
And no I don't want things to be handed to me on a silver platter, it often happens to me that I find the "casual content" too easy or I find it just right because you actually need to put some effort into it and you wipe a few times and I see so many people cry and whine about it until it gets dumbed down and I dislike that too.

Actually you are making some assumptions here. Do I think that there needs to be bigger gear carrots for savage, absolutely. Do I think we need to do away with normal mode? Nope. Normal mode is fine, the rewards for savage are not.

I have also said that there needs to be two progression paths for casual and HC players, I just have a problem with both paths ending at the same ilvl. The raiding path should yield the best ilvl gear.

So please, try not to see all casuals as lazy people who aren't willing to put in the effort and want things handed to them on a silver platter. There is a reason there is only a small amount of people doing endgame, not everybody has the means to put that much effort into a game.

I don't really make that assumption. My beef is with Yoshida and his team, not casual players. I never say stuff like "all casual players are lazy." When I speak in generalities like "I don't understand why you guys want raid equivalent gear without raiding" I am usually speaking about people participating in the thread.

I get that Alex savage not having any new story to it was a HUGE downer and it shouldn't be that way, it should have had a continued story of normal mode and something like a minion or such in the end to show "hey I did it!", and it should still have the highest iLvl gear rewards, because they really are not needed outside of savage.
But you simply cannot keep ~90% of the playerbase MONTH behind story and gear (lookswise) because all of us paying folks have a right to enjoy and get the "new look" feel when a new patch comes out and not be punished simply because our personal circumstances or the circumstances on our server doesn't allow us to get into the real endgame.

For the future they need to give savage a new story to discover or some sort of deeper insight... and a little more than just an achievement in the end. Heck they give PVP more than that.

And to what you said about Yoshi as a producer earlier:
I'm pretty sure he get's it, but if he would do all the things you want, he would be a much much worse producer than people make him out to be now, he HAS to view every problem from ALL angles and he has to go by what the MAJORITY of the playerbase is able to achieve, if he would do it any other way he would completely fail at his job. He has to find a balance.

If there was extra story in savage, there would be a casual outcry. I can already see the posts: "whats the point of normal!!11!11 D:<"

My problem with Yoshida is he asked waaaay more of raiders with Alex savage without stepping up the rewards waaay more. He spat in the face of raiders, that's what it feels like. Who signed off on that terrible idea of not stepping up raiding rewards? Yoshida and his dev team.

Higher ilvl gear is not going to change this for you. It actually would make it worse because all the rest of the content becomes that much more faceroll. You need to face the fact that the only reason you want higher ilvl gear is epeen, ego, desire. You want to feel above the rest when you are wearing that gear. You want people to see you, you want to stand out. You dont actually need it and it would only make the next raids that much easier.

My point was that I am not logging in to show off my epeen. I am not logging in at all. I don't think higher ilvl rewards will make me log in. I think the entire reward structure needs to be reworked from the top down. That starts with higher ilvl for raiding. I will keep saying this, how do you expect the rewards from casual and midcore content to be meaningful when the hardest content in the game yields meaningless rewards?

I used to raid, I know how it works. Although in other mmo's you ACTUALLY NEEDED the gear to progress to further tiers of raids. Here you dont, thats why savage gets cleared so fast. So I dont believe this nonsense that raiders need higher ilvl gear. There are other ways to reward savage players than power.

With what? Story? Nope can't have that.
With unique standout gear models? Nope, can't have that.
With a marginally higher ilvl than augmented gear? Nope, can't have that.

Right now, raiding rewards amount to bragging rights and that's it. We have already seen how well this design plays out. SCoB savage was hardly popular, no one did it. We are seeing the same pattern play out with Alex savage.

Also, a superior Ilvl in raid gear does have a purpose, it supposed to help you in the next raid tier or give you a head start in the next expansion.

I'm by no means saying that raiding in FFXIV is where it should be, because its not. Why should it matter that raiders have higher ilvl gear than non raiders? It shouldn't, just like it shouldnt matter that non-raiders have similar ilvl gear as raiders (because that doesnt matter either by content design)


The problem with current content is longevity. Raids, dungeons, and 24man's... It applies to all areas of content. There isnt enough content that is lasting. There isnt enough content that is meaningful and there isnt enough content that keep people's attention. Coil was GREAT implementation of content. It was the perfect difficulty for the norm. Regardless of people that bitched about not seeing it. The raiding system in general needs an overhaul, it shouldnt just be - DODGE DODGE DODGE- there needs to be elements in raids that stump people, ones that they cant and wont figure out right away

The longevity problems is directly related to rewards. Content is short lived because there are very few compelling reasons to repeat content clears. When all you need to do is do a daily expert and one 24 man a week to stay current, why stay logged in any longer to do content?

I agree, content currently is poorly designed. There are no hard dungeons, raids really arent that difficult. I went into A7S last night for the first time, not having watched any videos or guides and I bet if I had stayed for another lockout it could have been cleared. Gear architecture is currently one of the big problems here and honestly I dont even know why we have ilvls at all.

I think one thing everyone agrees on is that the endgame, in it's current state, is a dumpster fire for all players regardless of skill level.

[SinisterJointss]

Part of the problem there is item level inflation... I mean, Lv60 starts out at i150, then before 3.1 even came around, we had i210... We could actually have a much tighter progression up the item levels if SE wasn't so set on making everyone the same every other patch... If you don't hand casuals raider tier progression, then you don't have a situation where Scriptures are going to outclass everything we currently have... You don't rise through the item levels at a fairly alarming level, and content maintains its difficulty for slightly longer... Heck, they don't even have to make these jumps 10 point differences... We had i220 > i230 > i240, for example, but i220 > i225 > i230 is just as viable...

Content is also just designed terribly, at least IMO... I still remember the good old days of 2.0, clearing Titan in i50 trash... Oh, I was carried? Yeah, no... I wasn't the healer eating dirt all fight... I swear, minimum item level required just translates to "You could probably do this 10 or 20 points lower, and still lose a DPS" ever since... Not sure how well that applies to more recent content though, but I do recall doing A3 with 2 or 3 people locked out fairly early into 3.0... Of course they still took the loot, because XIV has to reward everyone, even if they literally didn't participate in the run... Earning gear? Such a tired and outdated concept...

I agree, content currently is poorly designed. There are no hard dungeons, raids really arent that difficult. I went into A7S last night for the first time, not having watched any videos or guides and I bet if I had stayed for another lockout it could have been cleared. Gear architecture is currently one of the big problems here and honestly I dont even know why we have ilvls at all.

[Velhart]

We all pay the same amount each month, so why are you more priviliged than others that just simply CAN NOT put the effort into endgame the way it is needed?

You pay 12.99 to access the world, not to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. That is what veteran rewards are for. That privilege you speak so lightly of is from people who put in the hard work to have it. Work that most are not willing to do but for some reason feel just as entitled to it.

If you cannot put in that kind of effort, then you need to acknowledge where you are in the progression chain, which is not at the end. When I played WoW before raiding, I always saw characters who had this really top notch Heroic gear and sometimes Legendary weapon that really showed off who was the best of the best. I in no way felt entitled to that gear at all, I know that person sweat blood and tears to get to where he was at.

If I am going to stress myself out doing these really hard dance routine raids that a lot of times tests my patience, then yes I do deserve that privilege that casual players shouldn't have.

[SinisterJointss]

My point was that I am not logging in to show off my epeen. I am not logging in at all. I don't think higher ilvl rewards will make me log in. I think the entire reward structure needs to be reworked from the top down. That starts with higher ilvl for raiding. I will keep saying this, how do you expect the rewards from casual and midcore content to be meaningful when the hardest content in the game yields meaningless rewards?

With what? Story? Nope can't have that.
With unique standout gear models? Nope, can't have that.
With a marginally higher ilvl than augmented gear? Nope, can't have that.

Right now, raiding rewards amount to bragging rights and that's it. We have already seen how well this design plays out. SCoB savage was hardly popular, no one did it. We are seeing the same pattern play out with Alex savage.

Also, a superior Ilvl in raid gear does have a purpose, it supposed to help you in the next raid tier or give you a head start in the next expansion.


The longevity problems is directly related to rewards. Content is short lived because there are very few compelling reasons to repeat content clears. When all you need to do is do a daily expert and one 24 man a week to stay current, why stay logged in any longer to do content?

You keep screaming for higher ilvl for raiders but with the current design of content you dont need it. This is me speaking about CURRENT, not about "what may come". Ok so lower tome gear 5 more ilvl's, 10 more, would you be happy? I honestly dont think you would. You say that the reward you get from savage is meaningless but it isnt ilvl that is making it that way. Its the architecture of the gear that is. Currently there is 1 bis piece (maybe two options for some) for end game players, thats it. Thats why it seems meaningless, we are ALL chasing the same stats.

There is no diversity therefor it will always feel that way

Increasing the power of rewards will not increase the longevity of content, it will shorten it because once you have all your pieces you will not log in until the next patch. I agree'd about the reward structure though

Raiding has only ever amounted to bragging rights... EVER.

The best gear from raiding is already in the game, it just isnt as high ilvl as you want. Every bis set for people includes at least one piece from savage so I really dont know what you are trying to accomplish.


this point here though
Also, a superior Ilvl in raid gear does have a purpose, it supposed to help you in the next raid tier or give you a head start in the next expansion.

Current gear already does that....

[Istaru]

I agree, content currently is poorly designed. There are no hard dungeons, raids really arent that difficult. I went into A7S last night for the first time, not having watched any videos or guides and I bet if I had stayed for another lockout it could have been cleared. Gear architecture is currently one of the big problems here and honestly I dont even know why we have ilvls at all.

At times, I wonder why we have anything other than glamour, mounts minions and titles.

Everything else in the game is temporary and made to be thrown away.

Which kills me since all we hear about is how understaffed they are. Idk, maybe stop releasing everything in the manner that you do?

[zosia]

I agree with you here.
But keep in mind how unmotivated people get if they see things that they know they will NEVER be able to get anyhow... it's always a two-sided blade.

I don't know what kind of rewards would be satisfying to you that would not make casuals feel like they are lesser human beings (exaggerating here) for not being able to clear the content (This is a serious question, I would like to know what kind of reward there could be to make endgame feel worthwhile). For me it's fine if endgame gets higher iLvl, I would have a problem with it though if the gear was completely unavailable to me glamourwise just because my life or my server makes it impossible for me to find the time or the right group to get through the content.

Well, to answer you question, for me at least, exclusive rewards. I want to FEEL justly rewarded for millions of gil spent, countless hours of frustrating progression, and keeping my raid roster filled out. If raid gear cannot be the best gear in the game, then raid gear needs to really have a standout appearence.

Look at guildwars 2, a strictly horizontal progression MMO. The skins coming from end game content are amazing! The detail, effects, and models are unlike most of the other gear in the game. Right now, the normal mode gear set spoils any chance of Midas gear having a stand out appearance.

Savage should have either superior Ilvl or amazing vanity gear that stands out over anything else offered in the game. I would be happy with ONE of those. At least with FCoB, we had some of the most unique looking gear in the game that was only obtainable through raiding. We had an amazing raid story that was only obtainable from raiding. It FELT rewarding.

To be as concise as possible, I feel raids need either the best ilvl or the best glamours. Right now we have neither. If I had a preference between the two, I would take the ilvl over locking great glamours behind savage.

You keep screaming for higher ilvl for raiders but with the current design of content you dont need it. This is me speaking about CURRENT, not about "what may come". Ok so lower tome gear 5 more ilvl's, 10 more, would you be happy? I honestly dont think you would. You say that the reward you get from savage is meaningless but it isnt ilvl that is making it that way. Its the architecture of the gear that is. Currently there is 1 bis piece (maybe two options for some) for end game players, thats it. Thats why it seems meaningless, we are ALL chasing the same stats.

Which is why I keep saying the entire reward structure needs reworking.

There is no diversity therefor it will always feel that way

Increasing the power of rewards will not increase the longevity of content, it will shorten it because once you have all your pieces you will not log in until the next patch. I agree'd about the reward structure though

Sure it would, That's the entire concept of the carrot on a stick. You keep running the content past the first clear until you get that carrot. Right now, there is absolutely no reason to farm gear past your initial clear when you can show up day one of 3.4, buy all ivl250 crafted gear, and be better off than every midas savage raider that farmed a BiS set for The Creator Savage.

Raiding has only ever amounted to bragging rights... EVER.

Nope, there are so many reasons why you are wrong here. I will just highly a big one and move on. Story. Story is a big part of what motivates a raid.

The best gear from raiding is already in the game, it just isnt as high ilvl as you want. Every bis set for people includes at least one piece from savage so I really dont know what you are trying to accomplish.

Trying to save this game from becoming Lord of the Rings Online reborn, but I am afraid that we might already be there.

this point here though
Also, a superior Ilvl in raid gear does have a purpose, it supposed to help you in the next raid tier or give you a head start in the next expansion.

Current gear already does that....

That's a big part of the problem. Current tome gear should not give you the same advantage next raid tier as a Midas savage set does. It completely kills any motivation to keep clearing Midas savage after the first clear.

Well SE did do that once. FCoB's raid gear is so over the top looking, but it is clearly raid looking gear.

I would argue that SE is still trying to make unique looking raid gear, but its just not producing the same results. Another factor is they put a lot of time and detail into non-raiding gear also which makes it blend with other gear sets. We could be proven wrong this tier if the final Alex gear looks over the top and unique.

I really really really hope The Creator offers up some good looking gear.... even typing this makes my heart sink into my chest in disappointment... Yoshida has conditioned me to never put faith in game developers. I feel like we will probably just get more plain Jane gear that is matched model wise by the normal set. My heart sinks because I know Yoshida is just gonna let us all down again :/

I wish I could just take all of your posts, translate them into japanese, and mail them right to Yoshi P. You are so on the money.

One thing I would add though is that there is somehow more incentive to normal mode than savage, even without the far higher accessibility. NM should not have gear progression that is required by raiders, and instead offer something along the lines of rare glamour and minion drops, independent of savage, or even tie it into the relic from the get go. I feel like another aspect of the NM/savage debate is that raiders are burnt out with the aesthetic and bosses of alexander before they even step foot into savage, which doesnt help the lack of rewards or fight difficulty when it comes to participation and enjoyment.

I appreciate the kind words.

I do agree with the midas normal incentives being out of whack too. You are absolutely right. How exciting can it be reaching a new savage alex floor when you have already been farming alex normal for weeks.