war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Brian_]

Wether he could or not, it's still irrelevant.
You can manage Final Apocalypse and Final Beam differently. Even if you decide to split Final Beam with only the two tanks and not the whole party, you can completely avoid the damage of Final Apocalypse, saving some precious MP for your healers.

It's exactly like how a properly timed HG or LD can allow you to take Secondary Head and Primary Head against Kaliya without dying. It's fun and all, but it's still meaningless and doesn't justify the use of PLD or DRK as main tank.

It's not irrelevant because it's a raid DPS gain if you don't have to spin the boss around like a top and don't have to share the beam with the party. Melee DPS don't get pushed back, ranged DPS and healers don't get their casts interrupted. They have an extended DPS window where the boss is just a striking dummy. Subsequent mechanics are also greatly simplified because you don't have to reposition before prey + long needles for the first set and J-storm for the second set. Also, like I previously mentioned, the PLD being able to HG Final Punch --> Apocalypse --> Final Beam means that at least one if not both of your healers are free to DPS from after J-kick until the beginning of prey + long needles. If used on the second set, they're free to keep the party healed through short needles and prep for J-storm. That's why HG is really, really good in A8S.

That's the difference. The nuance of raid optimization and balance is hard to understand when you don't do the content. That's why I suggested you stop digging.

I don't get the need to try and comment and stuff you don't understand. I wouldn't walk into an operation room and tell the medical staff that what they're doing is unnecessary and that the patient will be fine.

[Reynhart]

It's not irrelevant because it's a raid DPS gain if you don't have to spin the boss around like a top and don't have to share the beam with the party. Melee DPS don't get pushed back, ranged DPS and healers don't get their casts interrupted.

You only need to turn it 90° for Final Apocalypse, and I'm pretty sure I said "split Final Beam with only the two tanks", especially to not push back DPS.
I may lack some raiding skills, but I'd thought you have at least the proper reading skills...

[Freyyy]

I may lack some raiding skills, but I'd thought you have at least the proper reading skills...

That punchline tho

[Brian_]

Except what I said is still true despite your nit picking. It's still a raid DPS loss because you are still spinning the boss from side to side -- 90 degrees to redirect the Apocalypse and then 90 degrees back to the bound tank. And, unless you are a DRK + PLD pairing or your WAR wants to waste their Holmgang, they're losing DPS from the push back and have to reposition for the subsequent mechanics.

[Februs]

Agree! At the moment if you want to see PLD identity you need to do PvP, there it feels and works like protector.

Pld s truly outstanding in the arena. It's pretty much the only place I use my Pld now, and it really does feel like it had a unique identity in there.

Unfortunately, it still suffers some serious drawbacks in comparison to War. Pld's are heavily dependent on a strong team to win. They don't have strong enough defensive skills to compensate for a weak healer for the entire duration of a match, and they don't have strong enough dps to compensate for a weak dps team. They're also substantially more difficult to use effectively in PvP than Wars, requiring far more awareness and skill. If the team is well coordinated, then things work out really smoothly. If not, then things fall apart really fast. By comparison, Wars have an easier time carrying the team, especially in solo-queue where your teammates are random.

[Februs]

I didn't say you said that. I said you and many others acted as such. Go back and read the first page. It's non stop posts about how much better WAR is than DRK and PLD. A lot of which is simply not true.

Some highlights to refresh your memory ...

This is silly regardless, because there is nothing a Pld can do in the MT position that a War can't do just as well, if not better. Even back in the 2.0 days, War was often designated OT for the sake of higher Dps, but a War-War party was just as viable, especially without the current Limit Break restrictions.

So ... what about this statement isn't true? Did something change recently which made War somehow inferior to Pld in the MT position? Do they not still have better dps and comparable defense? I was under the impression that War is perfectly viable as an MT, regardless of being the preferred OT, but if that's false somehow then I'm genuinely shocked.

[aleph_null]

So ... what about this statement isn't true? Did something change recently which made War somehow inferior to Pld in the MT position? Do they not still have better dps and comparable defense? I was under the impression that War is perfectly viable as an MT, regardless of being the preferred OT, but if that's false somehow then I'm genuinely shocked.

Nah war's perfectly capable of MTing a8s, there are clears with double war compositions. It's just that pld and drk can cheese the tank buster rotations in the later phase of a8s without tank swapping, unlike war, which is pretty much what was discussed in the last few pages of the thread.

[Reynhart]

Except what I said is still true despite your nit picking. It's still a raid DPS loss because you are still spinning the boss from side to side -- 90 degrees to redirect the Apocalypse and then 90 degrees back to the bound tank. And, unless you are a DRK + PLD pairing or your WAR wants to waste their Holmgang, they're losing DPS from the push back and have to reposition for the subsequent mechanics.

Were you the one to correct me that way, it suddenly wouldn't have been nit-picking but awesome advance strat earned through years of experience, that you would have gladly thrown into my face.
As for DPS loss, did your melee suddenly don't know how to do their positionnals ? Or will you tell that I don't know what a "moving target" is since I've never done A8S ?

As for the knockback, if you put yourself between the legs of Brute Justice, Final Punch will only push to the edge of the target circle, so you're still in range, and the bind effect wears off just after Final Beam, so you're delaying, at most, one GCD for the WAR. And you'd lose far more DPS that "one GCD" if you go PLD+DRK for the entire fight, compared to PLD+WAR or DRK+WAR.

[Sweetgrass]

You cannot nerf Warrior without fundamentally breaking them as a class, Storm's Path/Eye are invaluable, and removing/changing either of these would be a massive hit.

Give Rage of Halone an equivalent -10% dmg debuff, make Dark Arts proc Reprisal, and maybe you might have a little more competition.

[Brian_]

So ... what about this statement isn't true?

MT and OT labels are bit less defined in A6S+, but PLD is much better in Midas than it was in Gordias. HG is relevant again when previously in Gordias it was quite mediocre. It's still mediocre in A5S but in A6S and beyond it's much better than Holmgang and in A7S and A8S it's a big difference maker. Also, A8S has some extremely hard hitting physical tank busters that Sheltron is great for and situations where Tempered Will is actually useful as MT. Aside from that, since the buffs to ShO and PLD DPS, a MTing PLD's DPS really isn't that far off from a MTing WAR's.

I mean, maybe you could still just have PLD OT for everything but those moments but I think that'd still end up with PLD "MTing" for the majority of the fight.

snip.

When you are spinning a boss from side to side faster than you can strafe, whether it's due to slight differences in the timing of the spin and how it lines up with DPS GCDs or just the presence of positional update lag, it's expected you'll lose a few GCDs of positionals. Also, the knockback from the punch is not the issue. The knockback from the beam is. It's a DPS loss you can avoid entirely.

You need heavy CD usage to avoid dying to the punch. Those CDs will still be running for beam if timed properly. Apocalypse damage is largely negligible. Medica II and/or Regen ticks + Embrace spam + self sustain will easily out heal the damage. There is no functional point to sharing the beam with your tanks when one tank can survive it just fine.

And why this was even brought up in the first place was part of an overall example of why PLD and DRK are both extremely valuable in the content. You attack others for not reading but constantly miss the overall points made and fail to comprehend what is said. The point is PLD and DRK are both incredibly valuable in early progression. The problem is not PLD. The problem is not DRK. And, despite your clear fixation on WAR, the problem is not WAR. The balance of the three tanks is not nearly as bad as you think it is. The problem as multiple people have clarified is the pairing of PLD and DRK. Nerfing WAR is not going to fix that.