war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Brian_]

You repeatedly show complete blindness in this topic and are telling me to stop covering my eyes?

My point has always been that the problem is not WAR. It's also not PLD. And, it's also not DRK. It's what happens when you pair PLD and DRK together in a raid comp.

You and many others in this thread are acting like WAR needs to be nerfed into the ground because they are OP. You talk about their superior mitigation, their superior DPS, their superior raid utility. Nerfing WAR doesn't magically make PLD + DRK suck less. In direct comparison to PLD and DRK, WARs really aren't much better and are definitely not any more mandatory for raiding than either DRK or PLD.

[Launched]

And again, you just brushed off the topic of always having a WAR on the setup, which is more effective than PLD+DRK.

That's because bringing PLD+DRK is almost the same as bringing 2PLD, 2WAR or 2DRK: they're too similar and don't really offer anything that stacks well with each other.

[Freyyy]

This thread became full popcorn time really quickly

[Reynhart]

WAR needs to be nerfed into the ground

Never said that

they are OP.

Never said that

are definitely not any more mandatory for raiding than either DRK or PLD.

Never said that, either.

What I said is that not having a WAR is running with a less optimal setup. And in these parts, suboptimal takes enormous proportion.

The only suggestion I made is to switch Storm's Path and RoH effect, and give DRK the slashing debuff, so that Slashing Debuff, Physical Mitigation and Magical Mitigation are fairly spread among the three tanks.
If that reduction is "to the ground" for you, then you'd better be a Lalafell.

That's because bringing PLD+DRK is almost the same as bringing 2PLD, 2WAR or 2DRK: they're too similar and don't really offer anything that stacks well with each other.

That's not true...by bringing a PLD and a DRK, you can apply both Delirum and RoH..for a slighty weaker effect than Storm's Path alone

[Launched]

That's not true...by bringing a PLD and a DRK, you can apply both Delirum and RoH..for a slighty weaker effect than Storm's Path alone

There's Reprisal I'm there too. The problem is that most fights are either heavily magical or physical but not both, so only one of the debuffs is useful at a time. DRK shouldn't have been given the same kind of stat debuff as PLD because it means you'll only want one of the two.

[Brian_]

I didn't say you said that. I said you and many others acted as such. Go back and read the first page. It's non stop posts about how much better WAR is than DRK and PLD. A lot of which is simply not true.

Some highlights to refresh your memory --

Warriors have no real disadvantage, so yeah, they could use more nerfs or the other tanks could use some buffs.

This is silly regardless, because there is nothing a Pld can do in the MT position that a War can't do just as well, if not better.

WAR is not "well designed", its abilities are just more powerful without any logic...why do defensive cooldowns give you an offensive buff ?

What could be done is to have Slashing debuff, Physical Raidwide mitigation and Magical Raidwide mitigation, and you give each tank only two of them.

• PLD, Physical/Magical Mitigation
• WAR, Slashing debuff, Physical Mitigaiton
• DRK Slashing debuff, Magical Mitigation

So, for each pair of tanks, you always have those 3 effects available. But it means nerfing Storm's Path.

Ok, so not better than every other car...but your truck can't be faster, better at off-road and consume less fuel than every other truck.

The problem with WAR is that is has no tradeoff. You don't lose any meaningful utility by bringing a WAR over a PLD or a DRK.
Without a WAR, you lose Storm's Eye, which is a very powerful DPS increase for all tanks, and for Ninjas too. You lose Storm's Path, an on-demand raid wide 10% damage mitigation...on top of that, it generates the highest enmity of all tanks when doing its optimal combo, it can't run out of TP, it can instantly refill a large part of its HP, and have the highest DPS of all tanks, thanks to its smooth stance dancing.

And I don't see how you could bring PLD and DRK on par with all of that at the same time. If you increase their DPS, you'd still Storm's Eye to buff it even more, if you increase the mitigation on RoH or Delirium, Storm's Path will still affect both pysical and magical, and stacks upon them...

Self sustainability is not that big of a deal when you gave healers such a huge leeway to heal you. You didn't suddenly took more damage, but you received a huge HP pool.

In reality, you can't have a car that beats every other car in power and fuel consumption at the same time.

[Reynhart]

I didn't say you said that. I said you and many others acted as such.

I'm not responsible for what others say or feel.

Yes, I suggested a slight nerf. Sue me...

As for the logic, I still stand by what I said. Why should a Defensive cooldown offer an Offensive buff ?!
It was even more true after 2.1 where wrath offered critical bonus despite being tied to a tank stance.

Or, for the record, why should an offensive cooldown offer a Defensive effect ?

The problem is that most fights are either heavily magical or physical but not both, so only one of the debuffs is useful at a time.

Actually, the Final Punch/Apocalypse/Beam combo contains Physical and Magical damage.

[aleph_null]

If only a WAR could survive that combo while saving Holmgang, Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum and Second Wind for the next rotation...
Oh, wait, it can

Without even adressing the issue that eating all of this solo doesn't have any purpose since it's possible to completely avoid Final Apocalypse. Or the other issue that even if you have a PLD or DRK to tank that solo, your off-tank still better be a WAR.

Even though he could've saved the holmgang for the second final punch, the second beam might kill him. He could survive the first beam without holmgang since he still had vengeance and thrill on. I haven't reached that part yet in A8S so idk if you can survive it with only defiance and IB.

[Reynhart]

idk if you can survive it with only defiance and IB.

Wether he could or not, it's still irrelevant.
You can manage Final Apocalypse and Final Beam differently. Even if you decide to split Final Beam with only the two tanks and not the whole party, you can completely avoid the damage of Final Apocalypse, saving some precious MP for your healers.

It's exactly like how a properly timed HG or LD can allow you to take Secondary Head and Primary Head against Kaliya without dying. It's fun and all, but it's still meaningless and doesn't justify the use of PLD or DRK as main tank.

[Synestra]

SE should improve and enhance the identity of paladin and dark knight better in this game.

Agree! At the moment if you want to see PLD identity you need to do PvP, there it feels and works like protector. They need to somehow incorporate this in PvE aswell, Tempered, Cover, Shield Bash, Shield Swipe, Clemency, Silence are way too underused in PvE compared to PvP where those are constantly on CD not to mention being OOM due Clemency and stance dancing.