war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Februs]

I didn't say you said that. I said you and many others acted as such. Go back and read the first page. It's non stop posts about how much better WAR is than DRK and PLD. A lot of which is simply not true.

Some highlights to refresh your memory ...

This is silly regardless, because there is nothing a Pld can do in the MT position that a War can't do just as well, if not better. Even back in the 2.0 days, War was often designated OT for the sake of higher Dps, but a War-War party was just as viable, especially without the current Limit Break restrictions.

So ... what about this statement isn't true? Did something change recently which made War somehow inferior to Pld in the MT position? Do they not still have better dps and comparable defense? I was under the impression that War is perfectly viable as an MT, regardless of being the preferred OT, but if that's false somehow then I'm genuinely shocked.

[aleph_null]

So ... what about this statement isn't true? Did something change recently which made War somehow inferior to Pld in the MT position? Do they not still have better dps and comparable defense? I was under the impression that War is perfectly viable as an MT, regardless of being the preferred OT, but if that's false somehow then I'm genuinely shocked.

Nah war's perfectly capable of MTing a8s, there are clears with double war compositions. It's just that pld and drk can cheese the tank buster rotations in the later phase of a8s without tank swapping, unlike war, which is pretty much what was discussed in the last few pages of the thread.

[Brian_]

So ... what about this statement isn't true?

MT and OT labels are bit less defined in A6S+, but PLD is much better in Midas than it was in Gordias. HG is relevant again when previously in Gordias it was quite mediocre. It's still mediocre in A5S but in A6S and beyond it's much better than Holmgang and in A7S and A8S it's a big difference maker. Also, A8S has some extremely hard hitting physical tank busters that Sheltron is great for and situations where Tempered Will is actually useful as MT. Aside from that, since the buffs to ShO and PLD DPS, a MTing PLD's DPS really isn't that far off from a MTing WAR's.

I mean, maybe you could still just have PLD OT for everything but those moments but I think that'd still end up with PLD "MTing" for the majority of the fight.

snip.

When you are spinning a boss from side to side faster than you can strafe, whether it's due to slight differences in the timing of the spin and how it lines up with DPS GCDs or just the presence of positional update lag, it's expected you'll lose a few GCDs of positionals. Also, the knockback from the punch is not the issue. The knockback from the beam is. It's a DPS loss you can avoid entirely.

You need heavy CD usage to avoid dying to the punch. Those CDs will still be running for beam if timed properly. Apocalypse damage is largely negligible. Medica II and/or Regen ticks + Embrace spam + self sustain will easily out heal the damage. There is no functional point to sharing the beam with your tanks when one tank can survive it just fine.

And why this was even brought up in the first place was part of an overall example of why PLD and DRK are both extremely valuable in the content. You attack others for not reading but constantly miss the overall points made and fail to comprehend what is said. The point is PLD and DRK are both incredibly valuable in early progression. The problem is not PLD. The problem is not DRK. And, despite your clear fixation on WAR, the problem is not WAR. The balance of the three tanks is not nearly as bad as you think it is. The problem as multiple people have clarified is the pairing of PLD and DRK. Nerfing WAR is not going to fix that.

[Reynhart]

The problem as multiple people have clarified is the pairing of PLD and DRK.

Yes, I'm one of them, if you haven't noticed

• 

  All 3 combinations are viable. The only "problem" with DRK+PLD combo is that "WAR is better".

Nerfing WAR is not going to fix that.

Actually, it can. WAR's utility is what makes it that important. By splitting evenly this utility among the three tanks, this is no more an issue. And the existing utility of PLD and DRK will compensate for slight DPS loss.

You cannot nerf Warrior without fundamentally breaking them as a class, Storm's Path/Eye are invaluable, and removing/changing either of these would be a massive hit.

Switching RoH and Storm's Path mitigation is not going to "break" the job. Nor giving DRK the slashing debuff.

[Brian_]

Yes, I'm one of them, if you haven't noticed

You aren't one of them. Again, you call out others for not reading but completely miss the point. Yes, you are saying that PLD+DRK is a problem. But, you are saying that's it's because PLD is a problem, DRK is a problem, and WAR is the biggest problem.

As such, your proposals are based on shallow class adjustments rather than a deeper look at why the problem even exists.

Actually, it can. WAR's utility is what makes it that important. By splitting evenly this utility among the three tanks, this is no more an issue. And the existing utility of PLD and DRK will compensate for slight DPS loss.

Switching RoH and Storm's Path mitigation is not going to "break" the job. Nor giving DRK the slashing debuff.

You clearly don't understand tank balance if you think removing Storm's Path is either balanced or rational.

Path fills the same raid utility role that Divine Veil and Reprisal / Delirium does. If you removed Path without also removing DV and Reprisal / Delirium, you would never bring a WAR in this early progression meta because they'd give you nothing in terms of unique raid mitigation. You'd just bring PLD / DRK / DRG / NIN / MCH / BLM / WHM or AST / SCH to everything. You'd instantly flush both WAR and MNK out of the meta.

Actually, if you have a PLD in your setup, having is as an OT is a huge DPS boost, since its gap between MT and OT DPS is the biggest among the three tanks.

Patch 3.1 called and wants its information back.

[Starkbeaumont]

Path fills the same raid utility role that Divine Veil and Reprisal / Delirium does. If you removed Path without also removing DV and Reprisal / Delirium, you would never bring a WAR in this early progression meta because they'd give you nothing in terms of unique raid mitigation. You'd just bring PLD / DRK / DRG / NIN / MCH / BLM / WHM or AST / SCH to everything.

He suggested to give str down (or actually physical dmg dealt down) to path, not to remove it.
Also WAR is not just there for path. it's there cause path can be applied as OT, 100% of the fight is necessary while also boosting tanks and NINs dmg and doing the highest indiviual dmg (of the three tanks) on top of that. (without relying on any resources since OT tp is basically infinite)

Edit for comparison: Divine Veil has a rather long CD and doesn't even effect the PLD, Reprisal needs you to be MT and Delirium can be applied by MNKs as well

[Brian_]

Okay, so I regard the 10% damage reduction from Path as synonymous with Path since it's the entire point of the skill. If you remove the 10% damage reduction from Path, it's no longer Path.

What could be done is to have Slashing debuff, Physical Raidwide mitigation and Magical Raidwide mitigation, and you give each tank only two of them.

• PLD, Physical/Magical Mitigation
• WAR, Slashing debuff, Physical Mitigaiton
• DRK Slashing debuff, Magical Mitigation

So, for each pair of tanks, you always have those 3 effects available. But it means nerfing Storm's Path.

He clearly suggested to remove the damage reduction from Path and give WAR physical mitigation instead.

WAR is obviously not just there for Path but Path is vital in early progression. Yes, it has higher uptime than DV and Reprisal but they're used in effectively the same way.

For example (I'm going off loose memory here so things will be a bit off), A8S P3/P5/P7 has a sequence where you take ~3k damage, 2 people will take ~18k damage, the other 5-6 people will take ~15k damage, and you end taking another ~3k hit. In total, each person will take ~21-24k worth of raw damage.

In early progression, outside of your tanks, people had ~18-20k HP. So if you take that sequence of damage without any mitigation, people will die every single time. Due to forced movement and the speed at which the damage happens, you are limited to HoTs and instant healing.

So having mitigation like Delirium / Dragon kick / Path / Reprisal / Virus / etc. and shielding like Succor / Adlo + Deploy / DV / etc. becomes absolutely mandatory. It doesn't matter if it's DV, Reprisal, or Path. They all serve the same purpose -- lower incoming raid damage so people don't die. Note that physical damage reduction does nothing here since the damage is magical.

And, because that sequence happens multiple times with huge raid hits in between that also demand mitigation, you can't afford to just blow everything to mitigate a single sequence. You need enough overall raid mitigation tools to cover multiple raid-wiping hits.

So what happens when PLD still brings DV, DRK still brings Delirium and Reprisal, but WAR no longer brings anything? Yea. You no longer bring WAR because people die if you do.

[Reynhart]

He clearly suggested to remove the damage reduction from Path and give WAR physical mitigation instead.

Another proof you can't read, nice.

He suggested to give str down (or actually physical dmg dealt down) to path, not to remove it.

Yes, that's exactly what I suggested