war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Brannigan]

And like I said earlier, a lot of raid comps are not viable during early progression. It's not just DRK + PLD

Yeah, I know. It would just be an easy fix that would open up a few extra comps without breaking balance. It just kinda sucks that right now you pretty much gotta go with WAR+DRK or WAR+PLD+MNK*. One of those is a three man team and WAR+DRK is still better than it for raid damage because of Reprisal. I don't think it's too unreasonable to want pretty much any comp of 2 tank/2 healer/1 caster/1 ranger/2 melee to be viable as long as they're all different jobs.

As for Deployment Tactics, I think DV/Mantra/Succor should be around +500 HP over Conva/Defiance/Deploy. I think MNK Mantra on the war/sch team would equalize them - my numbers could be off, though, since I'm just going from some week old logs and napkin math. Anyway, I think that the general power of Scholar and its shields is what has made raid damage creep up so high, and synergy with healing buffs is part of that. It's not even really a warrior thing, the extra Defiance buff just pushes it farther.

Maybe I'm just still triggered from seeing Cascade one shot my damage dealers when I was still running paladin for living liquid. It probably won't matter in 3.4 since it'll be easier than Gordias/Midas (I hope).


*I know you don't have to bring a monk since I didn't, but I really wish I had.
Also sorry to post this stuff in a warrior future thread. I don't think warriors have much to be worried about though. It'll just be that the rising tide (of level cap increase) won't raise their boat as much as the others.

[Duelle]

PLD's balance in 3.0 was a mistake SE has since fixed.

This is up for debate. Changing encounter design slightly and making boss attacks not entirely magical is not what I would call a fix.

You don't see reasonable WARs still asking for buffs because SE messed up in the past.

I'm not asking for buffs or anything of the sort. What I'm saying is that you think that a problem can only be isolated to progression, when in reality the problem trickles down to everyone. I saw plenty of this during my time in WoW, and what we saw with WAR during ARR and the issues with PLD last tier only reinforces my point.

-------------------------

I keep forgetting to address the OP.

I won't deny that WAR is a strong class at all, but am I the only one that thought the vit "adjustments" already nerfed us hard? we went from being able to zerk self heal a respectable chunk of our hp during bloodbath FC bursts to healing amounts that frankly felt inconsequential compared to healers "already-scripted-despite-the-specific-tank" amounts of healing.

I'm not convinced that this is a good argument. Emphasis on tank damage output was simply too high, and WAR is the job that set the standard for it during the first tier of Heavensward. This said, self-healing is supposed to be a small part of a bigger kit in terms of mitigation.

I guess another way to put it is a lot of people won't care since war had its time in the limelight and Drks/plds are the kewl kids anyways, but am I the only one getting the vibe that WAR will be almost back at 2.0 status again come next patch? I get the war-sch parallel, but at the same time when you actually break it down the magnitude of difference between the two and their competitors, war merely compliments other classes while doing good dps.

This in itself is a problem, as the three tanks should either compliment each other or be designed to be independent to one another. In either case, a raid would be able to get clears regardless of what combination of tanks you're bringing.

Sch has been admittedly op when used at the peak of its learning curve by most of the player base since way back in 2.x and things have only gotten worse. some people claim war has been in the same situation and people didnt notice, but if people didn't notice back in 2.x isn't it far to say the the disparity isn't nearly as great?

The thing is that during 2.0 WAR didn't have much reason to drop Defiance, since they actually lost mechanics when dropping it, and losing Inner Beast just for a bit of extra damage is not exactly intelligent. This illustrates things as they were quite well.

Late 2.x most raiders favored bringing another dps over bringing a warrior in most raids where tank swapping wasn't a necessity. The "offtank" role is always a precarious one and most experienced players acknowledge what makes WAR strong conceptually is that it has the OT role on lock while also being a strong MT contender.

This is actually due to the extremely poor planning that went into FFXIV's raid design. Everything is designed as a corridor that leads to a singular boss, so comps look at things from boss-to-boss rather than setting up their comps with the whole instance in mind.

While most mid/hardcore players cringe at the idea of it, I still know a lot of players that are locked into the concept that pld(shield)=MT, *PERIOD*. We're currently in a position where a lot of casual players are really salty about this because it flat-out isn't true, but I'm also worried that if the game shifts a hair back in these sort of players favor, we'll be confronted with the same sort of issues again.

This is entirely dependent on whether tank design smooths out the differences in performance between the tanks while offering different gameplay options. it IS possible to overwrite preconceptions like "PLD = main tank", but it requires design that actually reinforces the notion that all tanks can MT content.

[Reynhart]

They HG one rotation of Final Punch --> Apocalypse --> Final Beam.

If only a WAR could survive that combo while saving Holmgang, Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum and Second Wind for the next rotation...
Oh, wait, it can

Without even adressing the issue that eating all of this solo doesn't have any purpose since it's possible to completely avoid Final Apocalypse. Or the other issue that even if you have a PLD or DRK to tank that solo, your off-tank still better be a WAR.

[Sarcatica]

If only a WAR could survive that combo while saving Holmgang, Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum and Second Wind for the next rotation...
Oh, wait, it can

Without even adressing the issue that eating all of this solo doesn't have any purpose since it's possible to completely avoid Final Apocalypse. Or the other issue that even if you have a PLD or DRK to tank that solo, your off-tank still better be a WAR.

There is another set of tank buster that makes WAR not able to solo it. And the 2nd set of tank buster is more unforgiving with the short needle ticking on your HP while getting the tank busters. In this case, having DRK/PLD use their LD/HG on the 2nd set is better.

Note: That vid is 1st Final Punch and you pretty much blow all your CDs there as WAR, leaving you with almost none for 2nd one. DRK/PLD taking these 2 tank buster combo alone makes it so much easier to control since there is no coordination at all to pull this off.

[Brannigan]

Off topic but does anyone know if Tempered Will breaks Final Punch's bind? I've never had it up because I use it on the landmines.

[Reynhart]

Note: That vid is 1st Final Punch and you pretty much blow all your CDs there as WAR, leaving you with almost none for 2nd one.

Like I said, in this video, he didn't use Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum or Second Wind (He even have Internal Release up, if he wants its next healing skills better chance to crit).
As for Holmgang, he popped it but it didn't proc. Should he have used Equilibrium, he would have ended with a decent HP pool after Final Beam.
And Equilibrium would still be up for the next rotation...

He even says "Stop healing me" to his healers...

[Brian_]

If only a WAR could survive that combo while saving Holmgang, Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum and Second Wind for the next rotation...
Oh, wait, it can

Without even adressing the issue that eating all of this solo doesn't have any purpose since it's possible to completely avoid Final Apocalypse. Or the other issue that even if you have a PLD or DRK to tank that solo, your off-tank still better be a WAR.

You just linked a video of a WAR blowing basically everything to survive one Final Punch --> Apoc --> Final Beam.

So what do you have for the next rotation? Foresight and IB? Maybe an Adlo shield buffed by Convalescence? You can Equilibrium and BB to survive the Apocalypse and Short Needles (with regen and medica II). You can Holmgang the beam. But, the punch is going to kill you first.

With Vengeance, Thrill of Battle, Raw Intuition, IB, and a SCH shield it still dropped him to 14k HP. You seriously think that with just Foresight, he's living through the next one? You're comparing 20%, ~7% damage reduction with Defiance to 30%, 20%, 20%, + 20% more HP with Defiance.

Like... At some point you really just need to stop digging.

And for reference, I do what Xeno did in that video every week. I know it can be done. The second one will massacre you.

[Sarcatica]

Like I said, in this video, he didn't use Foresight, Convalescence, Equilibirum or Second Wind (He even have Internal Release up, if he wants its next healing skills better chance to crit).
As for Holmgang, he popped it but it didn't proc. Should he have used Equilibrium, he would have ended with a decent HP pool after Final Beam.
And Equilibrium would still be up for the next rotation...

He even says "Stop healing me" to his healers...

Xeno took 27.5k from Final Punch with Adlo and Vengeance + IB (44% reduction) + RI (the punch was parried too). What makes you think a WAR can survive 2nd one without Vengeance? You will get 1 shot from the 2nd one for sure. I haven't found any WAR doing the stuff solo, so yes, back to the point where people keep saying WAR is "god" at tanking very false.

[Brian_]

This is up for debate. Changing encounter design slightly and making boss attacks not entirely magical is not what I would call a fix.
I'm not asking for buffs or anything of the sort. What I'm saying is that you think that a problem can only be isolated to progression, when in reality the problem trickles down to everyone. I saw plenty of this during my time in WoW, and what we saw with WAR during ARR and the issues with PLD last tier only reinforces my point.

They also increased DV's uptime by a huge amount, buffed PLD's DPS so that it's no longer an embarrassment, helped their TP consumption a bit, and made MNK stronger to incentivize PLD + MNK comps.

To imply that all they did was change encounter design is just wrong.

I also played WoW for 4 years during Vanilla through BC as a bleeding-edge progression raider. I'm familiar with the balance issues the game had. I'm not denying the trickle down effect. I'm saying that there has to be something to trickle down and there currently isn't. PLD and DRK are both fine at the highest levels. Unless we get another A4S in the Creator (and we won't according to Yoshida), this conversation is irrelevant.

snip.

I'd like more variety in comps, too. I never said PLD + DRK wasn't a problem. I've just been saying that people here greatly undervalue what DRK and PLD bring to their raid comps and are vastly overrating how much better WAR is. I really just wanted to inject the other side of the argument into what was currently a rather one sided thread.

That said, if the DPS checks are even looser in the Creator and the eHP checks aren't at the levels they were in Midas, we'll probably get more varied raid comps anyways. We've slowly been getting there. We pretty much had one tank, healer, and melee DPS raid comp in Gordias. At least in Midas, things have gotten better. Incrementalism I guess.

[Reynhart]

Like... At some point you really just need to stop digging.

And maybe you can stop covering your eyes...
Well, it won't matter in the end, after Yoshi-P acknowledged that WAR and SCH are ahead of the other jobs of the same role, and that adjustments will be made on them comes 4.0, even if they won't be the only jobs adjusted.

And again, you just brushed off the topic of always having a WAR on the setup, which is more effective than PLD+DRK.