Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're still missing the point. This pattern of devaluing time invested into the game needs to be addressed on all fronts. No one has problems with reasonable nerfs and nerfs over time, but what this game does turns players off to staying subbed long term. It only takes 2-3 patches to figure you out only need to really sub a few months a year to have the exact same character progression as someone subbed year around. This causes less people to stick around and that sort of apathy always leads to more lost subs.

Like in your post where you use Yokai as an example. Why are we going to grind out all the weapons and the glowing mount when SE will just put the rewards in the cash shop like they did from the lightning returns event? After the Yokai event ends, people that missed it will whine so much that SE will ultimately put them in the cash shop.

These are the incentive problems we are talking about. Why try now when you know there will be a much easier approach to come?

No, I am not. You're just insisting only your perspective has any merit. And you're arguing in circles. Nerfs of any caliber-- according to you -- result in overall player apathy. Therefore, how can any be reasonable? Say they left mount drops at exactly the same rate. A person waiting several patch cycles will always have a far easier time because those bosses are going to melt. Look at Garuda. No one does her mechanics anymore. You have premades with a single tank, a single healer and six DPS who utterly annihilate her in a few minutes tops. You really don't even need a healer nowadays if the tank can handle it. Good luck trying that back in 2.1.

Hmm, going out on a limb here but I suspect that $65 price tag might be a good deterrent. You're acting like the Lightning Event, or other like-minded, were monumental. I guarantee you the players unsubbed now, would still be unsubbed even if every piece of event content remained lost in time. They unsubbed because they were bored. Running Ravana a hundred times would likely contribute to said boredom not alleviate it.

Because generally people want it now. They don't want to wait a year. Look no further than the recent delays to No Man's Sky and Final Fantasy XV. People lost their collective minds over two months. Here's the thing though, if you make so players who have played for longer have a distinct and continual advantage over those who don't, you will never see new players. I started around HW's release. Why would I continue playing if no matter what I do, someone from launch is ahead of me not because of their individual skill, but because they picked up the game before I did?

You also continuously ignore other outside factors. Legion is a massive expansion. And seeing a number of FFXIV players are either former or current WoW players, this will inevitably influence these numbers, especially when we're in a "catch up" patch-- oft criticised for not having enough to do for people already "caught up." Once again, I guarantee if by 4.0, we saw three Primals, a complete and successful overhaul of Diadem, objective and/or more dynamic based content, no more tome grinding, and just more to do in general, you'd see people sticking around longer. For some, one primal and two faceroll dungeons just isn't enough to keep them playing even with PvP and PotD. No amount of mounts, minions or gear will change that even if it lasted for years. (Mount drop rates technically last a year, btw)

[zosia]

No, I am not. You're just insisting only your perspective has any merit. And you're arguing in circles. Nerfs of any caliber-- according to you -- result in overall player apathy. Therefore, how can any be reasonable? Say they left mount drops at exactly the same rate. A person waiting several patch cycles will always have a far easier time because those bosses are going to melt. Look at Garuda. No one does her mechanics anymore. You have premades with a single tank, a single healer and six DPS who utterly annihilate her in a few minutes tops. You really don't even need a healer nowadays if the tank can handle it. Good luck trying that back in 2.1.

For starters, yes you were missing the point by virtue of the yokai watch example. You also further missed my point where I said no one has problems with reasonable nerfs, yet you claim my point is nerfs of any caliber result in player apathy. You are probably still missing the point. Let me be as simple for you as possible....

Big nerf bad

Many Big nerf really bad

SE, should try a different nerf style to preserve reward impact across all aspects of the game

Hmm, going out on a limb here but I suspect that $65 price tag might be a good deterrent. You're acting like the Lightning Event, or other like-minded, were monumental. I guarantee you the players unsubbed now, would still be unsubbed even if every piece of event content remained lost in time. They unsubbed because they were bored. Running Ravana a hundred times would likely contribute to said boredom not alleviate it.

I am sorry if your life has left you thinking $65 dollars is a substantial amount of money. That is a price of a new video game after tax. You keep having to fall back to this idea of RNG, but you have yet to address other aspects where reward nerfs have hurt this game like the thavnarian set, gearing in general from a tome vendor, putting rare past event items in the cash shop like the lightning event. Your argument is a one trick pony, lol. You can only rely on how miserable it is to farm a 5% drop rate on current content. If you can't take the 5% drop rate now, why not wait until 4.0 who you could duo most of the primals that drop birds?

Your defense of the pony situation is just laughable. People would be able to get them, easily, if the drop rate had stayed around 5%. Rather than try to find a happy middle ground, you are here, defending the status quo despite the 25% sub drop over 7 months. Pathetic. This is why this game will die, people are too scared to change the status quo.

Because generally people want it now. They don't want to wait a year. Look no further than the recent delays to No Man's Sky and Final Fantasy XV. People lost their collective minds over two months. Here's the thing though, if you make so players who have played for longer have a distinct and continual advantage over those who don't, you will never see new players. I started around HW's release. Why would I continue playing if no matter what I do, someone from launch is ahead of me not because of their individual skill, but because they picked up the game before I did?

You're wrong. Wow had a decade of great sub numbers with a system that favored long term subscribers. You are offering nothing but a slippery slope argument here. A game can both be rewarding to it's long term players and welcoming to new players. Wow did it for a decade, whats your excuse for this game?

You also continuously ignore other outside factors. Legion is a massive expansion. And seeing a number of FFXIV players are either former or current WoW players, this will inevitably influence these numbers, especially when we're in a "catch up" patch-- oft criticised for not having enough to do for people already "caught up." Once again, I guarantee if by 4.0, we saw three Primals, a complete and successful overhaul of Diadem, objective and/or more dynamic based content, no more tome grinding, and just more to do in general, you'd see people sticking around longer. For some, one primal and two faceroll dungeons just isn't enough to keep them playing even with PvP and PotD. No amount of mounts, minions or gear will change that even if it lasted for years. (Mount drop rates technically last a year, btw)

Legion was not coming out 7 months ago, these sub numbers have been dropping for SEVEN MONTHS! IF you think you can pin that all on wow and legion, then I won't discuss this any further with you. The reason people are not sticking around for content like PotD is that A) it's grindy and B) the rewards suck.

You are cherry picking my posts and assuming my position solely rests on the idea that everything needs to be rare. Here, I will quote myself from another thread...

I like Housing, Minions, and glamours.



I dislike how the dev team has little to no communication with the player base. Important questions are never addressed in live letters, only silly questions no one cares about. Yoshi P had not given a good truthful answer to "what has not worked out" as it pertains to heavensward. He always dances around that question.

I dislike how the dev team implemented a4s without play testing the fight from start to finish. Some of them should literally lose their jobs over gordias. This dev team took a healthy raiding community in ARR and shattered it beyond repair with Gordias.

I dislike how the dev team invests so much of their limited resources on content like PotD, Lord of Verminion, and Diadem only to have all of those contents flop due to poor design and/or bad incentives.

I dislike how gear is worthless in this game.

I dislike how gear does not really impact your endgame gameplay, people literally get full 240 to stand around towns.

I dislike how full 240 BiS is a pointless endeavor because a ilvl 250 crafted gear set will completely outshine any 240 BiS set day one for patch 3.4.

I dislike how this dev team makes super rare items super common. (coffin lid, Thavanarian set, etc). It's like this dev team only knows 0 and 100 on the speed dial, the coffin lid went from a 1% drop to a 100% drop. How does that even make sense? Why not start like at 10, 15, or 25%? Why even nerf it at all, it's just rare furniture?

I dislike how there is no individualism in this game. Since everything is nerfed into the ground, rewards and rare items often become common place and cheap. There is very few ways to actually distinguish yourself from others. Everyone and everything feels like a giant bowl of bland vanilla paste.

I dislike how every bit of content outside of midas savage is set to the brain dead ez mode setting. I really dislike how netflix is almost mandatory for repeat clears of 90% of this game content. This game is boring af!

I dislike how there are completely unnecessary complications in this game. Why do we need five different types of glamour prisms? It takes the same mats to make any of the different grades, just standardize them FFS!

I dislike how SE is trying to bribe people with houses to stay subbed with housing demolition. Lets stop pretending that demolition makes housing wards active. People just log in once a month to preserve their housing lots.

I dislike that after three years that this game still has massive RMT issues. I dislike that rampant botting of all types is hardly punished in this game.

I dislike the clunky friends/black list UI that closes out every time you remove someone from the list.

I dislike hunts. They are no where near as cool as actual NMs. Hunts can go die in a fire.

I dislike the cash shop. I dislike the cash shop. I dislike the cash shop.

I dislike how every time there is a hotfix, the severs go down for three hours. Invest in better servers SE, Blizzard can do a hotfix in 15 mins and they only need to restart the server. Maybe use some of that cash shop money on FFXIV instead of FFXV?

I dislike the cheap reuse of monster assets and mechanics. 95% of PotD was just regurgitated environments with regurgitated monsters.

I could easily keep going on, there is so much to dislike like yokai, relics, gordias, etc. etc. etc. but why bother? The dev team is tone deaf and near incompetent when it comes to delivering new content.

I have plenty of issues outside of loot, mounts, and minions. This game is in trouble on multiple fronts. I do agree with you on the legion part. This game is losing more and more players to legion. Wow is doing what it does best, taking the best parts of other games and adapting them for better use.

For example, where do you think blizzard got the idea of the artifact weapon and guild halls from? It's going to take content misgivings of FFXIV and turn them into something amazing in wow. Have you even seen the artifact weapons yet? They even give me pause asking why I ever worked on a relic in this game.

Blizzard is going to keep snatching up more and more ffxiv players with legion. If the expansion is even half as good as it looks, FFXIV won't have another WoD flop to benefit from. This games days are numbered and the thought puts a grin of my face every time.

As said before.. you're misleaded if you think that the question ("Do I prolong my sub?") is answered either with
"Yes, because I want this or that gear and I won't get it, If I'm not subbed long enough. So I stay subbed." or with
"No, because right now I don't want any specific gear and I can get it easier in a month, so I resubb then. Or when it's released on the cash shop".



Well, what a luck I don't play this game just for the sake of progression.
And imagine that: When they at some point turn off the game/servers (or the F11 ones, with their everlasting and totally motivating progression system) your progression is down to someone who have not played the game at all and all you have now is some screenshots and memories.

And while I memorize the good times with my friends, you'll memorize the then-called "wasted" hours of progression, or what?

Ah yes, ofc I have no friends in-game, no fond memories of epic raid wins, no people I will retain friendships past this game. None of that at allllll. How shallow of me just to focus on pixels and never consider the MMO part of MMORPG. /s

lol, thank you for that.

Because no game has an infinite supply of players. People inevitably loss interest for one reason or another, which in turn, means a loss of revenue with no way to replace it.

Which is fine as long as this inequality is true


Sub lossed per year < New subs per year.


That has not been true in this game for about 10 months now. The player churn won't keep this game at 500k subs, a number Yoshi P. said is needed to maintain this game. We are already at what? 500k? I am willing to even give that a 100k buffer since it's an unofficial census. I wonder how long it will take to lose another 100k subs when legion hits

Well, we need new players because there is no video game with a half-life period = infinite as you imagine.

So you're asking what is better
a) a game which never gets boring and brings fun for at least 10 years (i.e. a 'perfect' game)
b) a usual game, like we know them today

Hahaha...

So we have an absolutetly unrealistic and so a very risky alternative (1 Mio. Units sold and all sub for the entire 10 years, something never happend so far in videogame history) with something like 1,85 billion € return...
But if you change something you risk losing a bunch of players you can't replace..

OR

a less unrealistic and less risky choice (10 Mio. sold over 10 years and 0,2 Mio subbed all time) with about 0,81 billion € return.
If you change something some will unsub, some will resub.

I'd take the realistic approach as a game producer.

(calculated with 45€ game // 15€ sub)

Well, the situation right now is that we are losing a bunch of players that are not being replaced fast enough. To put it simply, we are losing way more subs than new players joining. Yoshida said this game COULD survive with 500k subs, and already half way into the 2nd expansion we are at that number.

I am sure the quality of content is going to SKYROCKET when subs drop below 400k ^_^

enjoy that F2P P2W cash shop that is always looming behind every corner! I wonder how long it will be until this game sells character boosts just like wow, lol. Keep defending the status quo, you are doing great!

[Bourne_Endeavor]

For starters, yes you were missing the point by virtue of the yokai watch example. You also further missed my point where I said no one has problems with reasonable nerfs, yet you claim my point is nerfs of any caliber result in player apathy. You are probably still missing the point. Let me be as simple for you as possible....

Big nerf bad

Many Big nerf really bad

SE, should try a different nerf style to preserve reward impact across all aspects of the game

And allow me to enlighten you. Your opinion is not fact. No amount of frequency or insistence will ever change that. All you've proven is to be wholly arrogant as the very idea someone might dare to disagree seems entirely foreign to you.

I am sorry if your life has left you thinking $65 dollars is a substantial amount of money. That is a price of a new video game after tax. You keep having to fall back to this idea of RNG, but you have yet to address other aspects where reward nerfs have hurt this game like the thavnarian set, gearing in general from a tome vendor, putting rare past event items in the cash shop like the lightning event. Your argument is a one trick pony, lol. You can only rely on how miserable it is to farm a 5% drop rate on current content. If you can't take the 5% drop rate now, why not wait until 4.0 who you could duo most of the primals that drop birds?

Your defense of the pony situation is just laughable. People would be able to get them, easily, if the drop rate had stayed around 5%. Rather than try to find a happy middle ground, you are here, defending the status quo despite the 25% sub drop over 7 months. Pathetic. This is why this game will die, people are too scared to change the status quo.

And these presumptions continue. At what point did I expression my own financial situation? I spoke in general because there are, indeed, plenty of people who play this game and couldn't afford $65 on frivolous minions. There are plenty more who simply do not see the value in tossing money at the cash shop for stuff they could have gotten in-game yet chose not to.

Laughably only because you, once again, seem incapable of perceiving arguments that are not your own. Thus, I shall reiterate, you place far too great a significant on mounts, events or other frivolous trinkets. The mere fact you even bring up the Lightning event demonstrates you don't get its purpose. This wasn't some reward, but a promotional campaign for SE to advertise another game. Nevertheless, putting leveling gear on vendors or the Lightning event on the Cash Shop isn't causing sub loss. At least not to the degree you seem to believe. loreleidiangelo's post summaries how most people feel when bored of any game or hobby. By her own admittance, mounts or events won't woo her back because the content isn't interesting.

You're wrong. Wow had a decade of great sub numbers with a system that favored long term subscribers. You are offering nothing but a slippery slope argument here. A game can both be rewarding to it's long term players and welcoming to new players. Wow did it for a decade, whats your excuse for this game?

A decade of sub numbers... that gradually declined each and every year since its release. WoW had the unique advantage of essentially revolutionizing the entire genre-- releasing at a time where it literally had no competition. Nearly fifteen years later games are still attempting to copy it. Despite all of its prior success, WoW has lost millions of players. And I have a good suspicion it didn't have to do with drop rates or exclusives but content.

Legion was not coming out 7 months ago, these sub numbers have been dropping for SEVEN MONTHS! IF you think you can pin that all on wow and legion, then I won't discuss this any further with you. The reason people are not sticking around for content like PotD is that A) it's grindy and B) the rewards suck.

And in that seven month span, what happened?

Gordias Savage
Diadem
LoV
3.1's general lack of content

It's almost like people might have quit from boredom or frustration. FFXIV attempted numerous bits of content that either completely flopped or proved far too challenging for the overwhelming majority. This, coupled with what amounted to five months of basically Thordan EX and nothing else unless you could handle Gordias meant there just wasn't much to do.

None of this couldn't have influenced the sub numbers. You know, despite people even openly acknowledging they quit because of Gordias or because they had nothing to do. No. It's the drop rates and lack of event items staying exclusive.

You are cherry picking my posts and assuming my position solely rests on the idea that everything needs to be rare. Here, I will quote myself from another thread...

I cherry picked nothing since this whole argument began initially on mounts. Some of that I could even agree with, albeit not necessarily as vehemently. But the operative word in each point you make is "you." You feeling this is an issue does not abruptly make it one. People who disagree with your opinion are not inherently wrong because every single word is purely subjective. This is the part you seem to have difficulty with.

I have plenty of issues outside of loot, mounts, and minions. This game is in trouble on multiple fronts. I do agree with you on the legion part. This game is losing more and more players to legion. Wow is doing what it does best, taking the best parts of other games and adapting them for better use.

For example, where do you think blizzard got the idea of the artifact weapon and guild halls from? It's going to take content misgivings of FFXIV and turn them into something amazing in wow. Have you even seen the artifact weapons yet? They even give me pause asking why I ever worked on a relic in this game.

Blizzard is going to keep snatching up more and more ffxiv players with legion. If the expansion is even half as good as it looks, FFXIV won't have another WoD flop to benefit from. This games days are numbered and the thought puts a grin of my face every time.

Let's hold back a little before praising WoW as the gospel, hmm? They practically tanked their own sub numbers with years of essentially no content. For all of Legion's promises; for many, this is their last attempt to "win back the crowd." Nonetheless, Artifact weapons are nothing new. These have been in plenty of games, be it MMOs or single player RPGs.

That last sentence of yours speaks more about you than FFXIV, the devs or its players. "I'm so excited FFXIV is gonna die!" Is basically what you just said. Why not go play WoW then? Oh, because you're borderline trolling at this point and just want to watch it all burn. I mean, if we're being honest.

I'll summarize this whole 'debate' as thus:

You think the game is struggling due to nerfs to drop rates, lack of exclusives and basically stuff that makes you feel special.

I think the sub decline is a result of Gordias Savage, a general lack of content; in particular a midcore and less innovative features in overall design.

Neither of us know for certain. So mayhaps you should stop pretending otherwise.

[zosia]

And allow me to enlighten you. Your opinion is not fact. No amount of frequency or insistence will ever change that. All you've proven is to be wholly arrogant as the very idea someone might dare to disagree seems entirely foreign to you.

Where once did I say my opinion was fact? Where? Quote me once. LOL, Quote me once where I stated my personal beliefs as fact. You are just being sore that I pointed out from two separate posts that you did not really know what my point was. Yet, in light of evidence provided by your very own posts, you are doubling down that somehow you understood and that I am just arrogant.

No miss, you misunderstood, plain and simple. You didn't even read my post very well. You missed the entire point where I concede that reasonable nerfs are fine. lololol you can't even admit to being wrong in that light. You can only just call me arrogant and skip past the BS that you were called out on. You are so triggered! XD

And these presumptions continue. At what point did I expression my own financial situation? I spoke in general because there are, indeed, plenty of people who play this game and couldn't afford $65 on frivolous minions. There are plenty more who simply do not see the value in tossing money at the cash shop for stuff they could have gotten in-game yet chose not to.

Yep, I assumed you thought $65 was substantial because you said $65 was a substantial price tag for the set of retired items. My bad for making an assumption. See what a normal person does when they do something wrong? Now only if you could see the irony in you making assumptions about how I felt about nerfs, lol. Pathetic.

Laughably only because you, once again, seem incapable of perceiving arguments that are not your own. Thus, I shall reiterate, you place far too great a significant on mounts, events or other frivolous trinkets. The mere fact you even bring up the Lightning event demonstrates you don't get its purpose. This wasn't some reward, but a promotional campaign for SE to advertise another game. Nevertheless, putting leveling gear on vendors or the Lightning event on the Cash Shop isn't causing sub loss. At least not to the degree you seem to believe. loreleidiangelo's post summaries how most people feel when bored of any game or hobby. By her own admittance, mounts or events won't woo her back because the content isn't interesting.

Did you not even read the long list I posted to you? Do you know why I care about loot so much? Have you even the slightest idea? Probably not. Because to you, it does not matter what kind of feedback I have to give, it does not fit your play style and therefore it deserves to be refuted and invalidated.

Interesting content is just one side of the damn coin. Don't you see that? If all content needed to be was "interesting" to be popular, the concept of rewards and carrots would not even be a topic of discussion. You refuse to see that no matter how interesting new content is, less people will grind it out if they know there will be a short cut to the rewards later. People will get a handful of clears and put the content on a shelf, until the rewards are easily obtainable.

You could have the best content in the MMO industry and if the reward system sucks, people will just wander else where given enough time. There needs to be great reasons to do repeat clears of content.

Just like my long list of dislikes insinuates, you need both compelling content and compelling rewards to keep people playing. But go ahead, that presumption glass house of yours needs a few more stones through it's walls.

Look at palace of the dead, it's by far one of the more interesting dungeons SE has added so far, yet people gave up on it pretty fast. Why? Unless you wanted a common glamour weapon or a common mount, there was very little reason to return to the content for repeat clears. Now, how many people would be doing PotD if it dropped a BiS ring from the final floor? I bet a lot more people would rather have a BiS ring for their main class than some garbage alt weapon with an obnoxious glow.

A decade of sub numbers... that gradually declined each and every year since its release. WoW had the unique advantage of essentially revolutionizing the entire genre-- releasing at a time where it literally had no competition. Nearly fifteen years later games are still attempting to copy it. Despite all of its prior success, WoW has lost millions of players. And I have a good suspicion it didn't have to do with drop rates or exclusives but content.

You are absolutely FACTUALLY wrong!!!!!!! That entire paragraph is started on a false premise. Tell her what she has won, Johnny!

~today she will be receiving a lovely graph of wow subs showing there was no real sub decline until the game was already six years old! Back to you Zosia! /announcer-voice


What a lovely prize, don't go spend that all in one place! On a serious note, we all know that wow set the bar, but we don't need to look at wow to measure FFXIV. You can look at the star wars MMO and you can see what happens when a sub game hits around 500k active subs. Let me spoil the surprise for you, it's called free 2 play and games going belly up always run to that model.

And in that seven month span, what happened?

Gordias Savage
Diadem
LoV
3.1's general lack of content

It's almost like people might have quit from boredom or frustration. FFXIV attempted numerous bits of content that either completely flopped or proved far too challenging for the overwhelming majority. This, coupled with what amounted to five months of basically Thordan EX and nothing else unless you could handle Gordias meant there just wasn't much to do.

None of this couldn't have influenced the sub numbers. You know, despite people even openly acknowledging they quit because of Gordias or because they had nothing to do. No. It's the drop rates and lack of event items staying exclusive.

I think it all affected the sub numbers, you clearly did not read my list of dislikes. At this point, it does not surprise me that you read anything on that list. LOL.

I cherry picked nothing since this whole argument began initially on mounts. Some of that I could even agree with, albeit not necessarily as vehemently. But the operative word in each point you make is "you." You feeling this is an issue does not abruptly make it one. People who disagree with your opinion are not inherently wrong because every single word is purely subjective. This is the part you seem to have difficulty with.

Where have I said any feedback of yours is wrong in this thread? I mean, you are right, I genuinely think you are being willfully ignorant to the reward side of the compelling content coin. Where do I say you are not allowed to have an opinion? The irony is killing me!! LOLOLOL You are saying that I think you are wrong because we disagree. YESSSSS I absolutely think you are wrong in many regards, but not just for having a different opinion. I Think you are wrong because you don't or are not willing to take a look at the reward side of the 'content coin'. I think you are wrong and THAT IS MY OPINION, and I am allowed to have it, lololol!!! Sorry that it rubs you the wrong way that I don't think much of your opinion. You already have shown me that this is about being right for you more than it is about finding solutions.

Let's hold back a little before praising WoW as the gospel, hmm? They practically tanked their own sub numbers with years of essentially no content. For all of Legion's promises; for many, this is their last attempt to "win back the crowd." Nonetheless, Artifact weapons are nothing new. These have been in plenty of games, be it MMOs or single player RPGs.

I did say "IF". Do I need to really point out the nuances of reading to you? By qualifying my statement with "IF" I am already admitting that there is risk of failure... /headdesk

That last sentence of yours speaks more about you than FFXIV, the devs or its players. "I'm so excited FFXIV is gonna die!" Is basically what you just said. Why not go play WoW then? Oh, because you're borderline trolling at this point and just want to watch it all burn. I mean, if we're being honest.

Yes, I am enjoying myself. Trolling? I would not go that far. I am glad to provide actual feedback, like I have in this thread. I just take none of you or anything about this game seriously. I am sorry if that offends or if you even care, which you probably don't. I get more entertainment out of these forums than I do from any of the content in the game.

I'll summarize this whole 'debate' as thus:

You think the game is struggling due to nerfs to drop rates, lack of exclusives and basically stuff that makes you feel special.

DEFINITELY DID NOT READ MAH LIST! And you call me arrogant, lol. If you read my list, then you would know I have way more issues with this game past loot and mounts.

I think the sub decline is a result of Gordias Savage, a general lack of content; in particular a midcore and less innovative features in overall design.

Neither of us know for certain. So mayhaps you should stop pretending otherwise.

And maybe you should stop talking like an NPC from the game? lol mayhaps, lolololol

Anyway, Everything you said in that little list in your last quote was stuff included on my dislikes list. So, if you pulled your head out of your tuckus and actually read half of my replies in this thread alone, you would know I agree with you on that stuff. JUST FROM THIS THREAD:

-snip-

Furthermore, content like PotD, Diadem, Aquapolis, the 24 mans, will all be different sources for your BiS set in addition to having minor upgrades along the way to help you get to your BiS. Imagine if you had to go into diadem to get the best belt in the game made from killing giant dinosaur bosses? Then, to get the best ring in the game, you have to slay a lich lord and his army of minions in palace of the dead? To round out your set of interesting BiS gear with item effect, you have to kill Thordan EX for the best helm in the game. Do you kind of see what I am saying?

Now these ideas could be worked on obviously, but if I could snap my fingers now and make a wish, that would be the changes I would make. I would also make monsters tougher, dungeons harder, and hunt monsters more like world bosses. This would actually make these gear upgrades meaningful other than just stat sticks to stand around town with.

-snip-

The irony XD it's too much. Get me the number to planet fitness, I need to work out after this desert. You literally wrote me an essay about how arrogant and presumptuous I am, yet we agree on way more stuff then you realized. You just assumed that my only issues with this game are loot and rare items. You were just too busy trying to be right, lol.

Go actually read what I have been posting for the last week instead of jumping on one of my responses in a thread 30 pages deep playing logic hero.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Where once did I say my opinion was fact? Where? Quote me once. LOL, Quote me once where I stated my personal beliefs as fact. You are just being sore that I pointed out from two separate posts that you did not really know what my point was. Yet, in light of evidence provided by your very own posts, you are doubling down that somehow you understood and that I am just arrogant.

No miss, you misunderstood, plain and simple. You didn't even read my post very well. You missed the entire point where I concede that reasonable nerfs are fine. lololol you can't even admit to being wrong in that light. You can only just call me arrogant and skip past the BS that you were called out on. You are so triggered! XD

Your entire stance has essentially been "I'm right, you're wrong" with no quantifiable proof nor even the slightest acknowledgement your purposed theory might be wrong. Put simply, we disagree, but only you seem determined to insist your subjective viewpoints are accurate. I'm not sore at all, I merely disagree with you. A shocking revelation, I know. I read your point just fine. I disagree with it. Please try to understand the difference.

It is cute you've now resorted to throwing around nebulous terms, but don't flavour yourself, sweetheart.

Yep, I assumed you thought $65 was substantial because you said $65 was a substantial price tag for the set of retired items. My bad for making an assumption. See what a normal person does when they do something wrong? Now only if you could see the irony in you making assumptions about how I felt about nerfs, lol. Pathetic.

Our whole argument has pertained to your stance on the influence of drop rates, exclusives and etc. You only recently brought up another subset, however I never explicitly disagreed with you on those.

Did you not even read the long list I posted to you? Do you know why I care about loot so much? Have you even the slightest idea? Probably not. Because to you, it does not matter what kind of feedback I have to give, it does not fit your play style and therefore it deserves to be refuted and invalidated.

Yes. And the majority of it is irrelevant to what initiated our disagreement. We didn't start debating about the cash shop, housing or game difficulty. Therefore, it's not a talking point. You're now moving the goal posts to a broader subject because you dislike my opinions. Or want to catch me in some little "gotcha moment."

Well, the dev team has been trying the 'everyone can have everything given enough time' design philosophy for three years now and how well has it worked out sub wise? Let me save you the time of pondering over it... IT'S going TERRIBLE! This game lost close to 24% of it's active endgame player base from the last unofficial census. That's like 150k subs gone in 7 months.

There has to always be long term goals with huge carrots attached or there is no reason to stay subbed year around. Your philosophy is not playing out well in this game, the subs reflect that well enough.

It does not diminish the reward, it just makes people less motivated to collect less rare rewards. Lets be real, people like using special mounts. There are several ways to make something special and keeping the item in question rare is among them. If everyone knows that primal birds will end up at the same rarity as the primal ponies, why even bother farming them now?

People can wait until 4.0-4.1, duo or trio these fights, and benefit from a much higher drop rate.

It takes the motivation out of doing content while it's current. That's why we can't keep people subbed to this game, there is no point in maintaining a long term sub.

This was your first response to me. And all subsequent responses pertained along those lines. You only now have brought up other factors you dislike. How am I to form an opinion on subjects you failed to even mention when we started this whole debate? Nonetheless, I did comment on your list-- citing I even agree with parts of it, though not to your vehement extent. I, for one, do think gear needs refinement and have oft complained about how easy content is. I am, however, entirely indifferent to the cash shop. Why? Because I don't concern myself with how people choose to spend their money, so long as it does not effect me. They want Sleipnir? Cool.

Interesting content is just one side of the damn coin. Don't you see that? If all content needed to be was "interesting" to be popular, the concept of rewards and carrots would not even be a topic of discussion. You refuse to see that no matter how interesting new content is, less people will grind it out if they know there will be a short cut to the rewards later. People will get a handful of clears and put the content on a shelf, until the rewards are easily obtainable.

See, now you misunderstand. Your claim has been people have unsubbed because the proverbial carrot gets easier to obtain down the road-- which is what I disagreed with. Not the actual concept in and of itself. The two are not mutual exclusive. Frankly, one could argue the opposite. The average person typically looks to the path of least resistance. If you put a massive wall in their way, most won't do it at all. The content has to be fun and the rewards reasonable. FFXIV has struggled with overall repetition being its core mechanic.

In case any, I'm glad we agree it isn't one thing.

You could have the best content in the MMO industry and if the reward system sucks, people will just wander else where given enough time. There needs to be great reasons to do repeat clears of content.

But they do not need exclusivity. While the average player may not bother with obscene grinds or repetition, those outside that category generally want things immediately. Waiting a year because it might be nerfed isn't appealing because they want it now.

Just like my long list of dislikes insinuates, you need both compelling content and compelling rewards to keep people playing. But go ahead, that presumption glass house of yours needs a few more stones through it's walls.

Look at palace of the dead, it's by far one of the more interesting dungeons SE has added so far, yet people gave up on it pretty fast. Why? Unless you wanted a common glamour weapon or a common mount, there was very little reason to return to the content for repeat clears. Now, how many people would be doing PotD if it dropped a BiS ring from the final floor? I bet a lot more people would rather have a BiS ring for their main class than some garbage alt weapon with an obnoxious glow.

A list you did not provide for several pages of debate, yet only now saw fit to actually mention when specifically speaking to me? No, it doesn't count you posted it earlier because we weren't debating at that time. Nice try though.

PotD has been queuing fine. The most vocal of complaints have nothing to do with rewards, but that the content itself is far too easy and boring. People have been asking for objectives, mechanics and more dynamic content like sudden boss battles.

My argument has been we haven't had overly compelling content. Thus, it isn't the rewards causing an issue, but the content itself not being engaging enough to keep people interested. If Gordias were better tuned, dungeons posed some degree of a challenge and we weren't merely grinding tomestones every week, you likely wouldn't see a decline in subs even if rewards more or less remained unchanged. I know, and have spoken directly, to enough raiders who express a similar sentiment. There just isn't enough to do once they've got Alexander on farm or have reached a point where progression seems entirely bleak. Rewards aren't a factor here.

What a lovely prize, don't go spend that all in one place! On a serious note, we all know that wow set the bar, but we don't need to look at wow to measure FFXIV. You can look at the star wars MMO and you can see what happens when a sub game hits around 500k active subs. Let me spoil the surprise for you, it's called free 2 play and games going belly up always run to that model.

Congratulations. I overly exaggerated by not specifying after Vanilla. Fair enough, my fault. Good to see you're so humble about it. Would you like a medal?

SWTOR had far more problems that led to its decline; chief among them being it lost a substantial amount of money. Say what you will about FFXIV, however it's proven exceptionally profitable for Square. A MMO dipping to roughly 500k subs when in a content drought, alongside numerous other talked about issues, going up against two extremely hyped new games (Legion and No Man's Sky) and an equally hyped FFXV isn't all that surprising. Does FFXIV need some attention; perhaps even a redirection in certain attributes? Yes. Is it a dying game on the cusp of becoming F2P? Not even remotely.

I think it all affected the sub numbers, you clearly did not read my list of dislikes. At this point, it does not surprise me that you read anything on that list. LOL.

I don't. Funny how opinions work, hmm?

Where have I said any feedback of yours is wrong in this thread? I mean, you are right, I genuinely think you are being willfully ignorant to the reward side of the compelling content coin. Where do I say you are not allowed to have an opinion? The irony is killing me!! LOLOLOL You are saying that I think you are wrong because we disagree. YESSSSS I absolutely think you are wrong in many regards, but not just for having a different opinion. I Think you are wrong because you don't or are not willing to take a look at the reward side of the 'content coin'. I think you are wrong and THAT IS MY OPINION, and I am allowed to have it, lololol!!! Sorry that it rubs you the wrong way that I don't think much of your opinion. You already have shown me that this is about being right for you more than it is about finding solutions.

Um. Literally in that very paragraph. So... A+

Jokes aside, your whole argument has boiled around your opinion being the correct one. You do not get to abruptly add a whole new argument into a debate-- thereby changing what I initially disagreed with -- and then claiming how reasonable your stance has been. You also seem to like professing how I supposedly think of you or am someway bothered by your opinions. Once again, hun, I'm replying to you on an Internet forum. You mean as much to me as any other random person here. If you want to think otherwise. Good for you, I guess?

I did say "IF". Do I need to really point out the nuances of reading to you? By qualifying my statement with "IF" I am already admitting that there is risk of failure... /headdesk

The only ifs were your broad proclamations about Legion stealing away more subs and if BiS slot were dropped in PotD and if I could just see your glorious point because you know everything. That last one came up rather frequently.

Yes, I am enjoying myself. Trolling? I would not go that far. I am glad to provide actual feedback, like I have in this thread. I just take none of you or anything about this game seriously. I am sorry if that offends or if you even care, which you probably don't. I get more entertainment out of these forums than I do from any of the content in the game.

Posting on a game's forum that you are essentially giddy it will crash and burn, is trolling.

And about that bold bit. I just noticed your little list... was posted in an entirely different thread, yet you expected me to not only know of it but used it as a rebuttal in a complete separate debate where none of those points were ever mentioned by either of us until you quoted yourself. I guess those nuisances require telepathy.

DEFINITELY DID NOT READ MAH LIST! And you call me arrogant, lol. If you read my list, then you would know I have way more issues with this game past loot and mounts.

I did. Shame you only brought it up several posts later, when it had nothing to do with our arguments. And from a completely different thread. To be fair, it seems like all you have are "issues with this game," but how about you bring them up initially if you want to debate their merits, not several posts later when the whole debate originated with mount drop rates and exclusives.

Anyway, Everything you said in that little list in your last quote was stuff included on my dislikes list. So, if you pulled your head out of your tuckus and actually read half of my replies in this thread alone, you would know I agree with you on that stuff. JUST FROM THIS THREAD:

Great! Shame it has nothing to do with what we've disagreed on. This really cannot be made clearer. You feel, and you can correct me otherwise, rewards play a significant enough factor in people's motivations that nerfs such as drop rates contribute to sub decline. I don't agree. Any other talking point is irrelevant because that's the one we've been talking about.

The irony XD it's too much. Get me the number to planet fitness, I need to work out after this desert. You literally wrote me an essay about how arrogant and presumptuous I am, yet we agree on way more stuff then you realized. You just assumed that my only issues with this game are loot and rare items. You were just too busy trying to be right, lol.

Go actually read what I have been posting for the last week instead of jumping on one of my responses in a thread 30 pages deep playing logic hero.

No, I didn't. You never brought them up until posting that list only one post ago. Am I expected to read your mind after your quote of my post pertained only to drop rates and rewards in general? And there you go once again presuming. My only mentions of possibly agreeing with you were to specifically highlight nowhere near as vehemently nor on everything.

You quoted me, sweetheart. That post way above... is your first reply to me. Why would I like to dig around for your opinions in another thread when you didn't present them to me? Doing so now doesn't matter as it's essentially a different topic.

[zosia]

Your entire stance has essentially been "I'm right, you're wrong" with no quantifiable proof nor even the slightest acknowledgement your purposed theory might be wrong. Put simply, we disagree, but only you seem determined to insist your subjective viewpoints are accurate. I'm not sore at all, I merely disagree with you. A shocking revelation, I know. I read your point just fine. I disagree with it. Please try to understand the difference.

I am not 13, I know people disagree. You still are failing to admit that you missed stuff in the posts you actually replied too, like missing my point about nerfs. You are constructing some imaginary debate where you debating and I am 100% not . Lol. Again, you are playing logic hero without seeing your own fallacious errors.

Our whole argument has pertained to your stance on the influence of drop rates, exclusives and etc. You only recently brought up another subset, however I never explicitly disagreed with you on those.

Yes. And the majority of it is irrelevant to what initiated our disagreement. We didn't start debating about the cash shop, housing or game difficulty. Therefore, it's not a talking point. You're now moving the goal posts to a broader subject because you dislike my opinions. Or want to catch me in some little "gotcha moment."

Nope, I posted plenty of responses in this thread stating that the problem is not only the rewards, it's the content too. I gave you list to help be concise because I already wrote one in another thread. I don't have to move the goal post, I have posted in this very thread about how this content generally sucks.

Also, when did I agree to terms of debate? You know if you are going to pull out the debate pistols we have to actually agree on the terminology first right? There is a whole procedure to actually having a debate. What you are doing is playing logic hero. You jump into a thread, find someone YOU disagree with, and try to drag actual debate methodology into a setting neither of of us have agreed with. Again, I will reiterate what I said earlier, I don't take you or anyone on these forums seriously. Show me where I initiated a debate with you? LOL, you literally showed up with your college 101 critical thinking book like I cared.

The goal posts are not moved when I had relevant responses in this thread, the list was meant just to be an example, but here, let me grab another example, for you, from this thread alone.

Dungeons are too easy, there is no hard 4-man content anymore. We need more dungeons like the original amdapor keep, where players are challenged at a reasonable level. How will players ever step up their game if we only have toothless pinatas for dungeon bosses? Hell, half the time people don't even need to perform mechanics in dungeon fights.

You can tell that people are hungry for depth in this game by how well wiping city was received when it first came out. People loved that the new 24-man was not a loot pinata netflix set of encounters.

That was literally in my very first reply to this thread. That's what I mean by you playing logic hero. You have assumed my entire position off of a post you disagreed with. Then, you followed up by having a debate with me, one where we did not even come to agree on any terms. No friend, what we are having is an argument, not a debate. Don't try to elevate yourself with practices you are not fully familiar with, your local community college offers classes in logic and reason.

Ofc there is nothing wrong pointing out a fallacy here or there, but do you even hear yourself as you type? Have you actually ever been in a debate? lol

This was your first response to me. And all subsequent responses pertained along those lines. You only now have brought up other factors you dislike. How am I to form an opinion on subjects you failed to even mention when we started this whole debate? Nonetheless, I did comment on your list-- citing I even agree with parts of it, though not to your vehement extent. I, for one, do think gear needs refinement and have oft complained about how easy content is. I am, however, entirely indifferent to the cash shop. Why? Because I don't concern myself with how people choose to spend their money, so long as it does not effect me. They want Sleipnir? Cool.

You made a point that my position only rest on rewards. I provided evidence that it does not. In light of new evidence, people usually adapt, not double down on being wrong. Also, lets clear something up, you are trying to debate, and very poorly I might add, I am arguing. You are not worth the effort to actually debate. That takes work and investment mentally, something I am not really willing or prepared to give you. If I can't instantly find some facts from a google search, I am not going out of my way for a stranger on the internet to thoroughly prove my points.

The cash shop does effect you indirectly, you just don't want to see it or you are plainly ignorant.

See, now you misunderstand. Your claim has been people have unsubbed because the proverbial carrot gets easier to obtain down the road-- which is what I disagreed with. Not the actual concept in and of itself. The two are not mutual exclusive. Frankly, one could argue the opposite. The average person typically looks to the path of least resistance. If you put a massive wall in their way, most won't do it at all. The content has to be fun and the rewards reasonable. FFXIV has struggled with overall repetition being its core mechanic.

One of my claims. I posted more than one reason in this very thread as to why people unsub. Again, you have focused in on a part of my whole opinion and are trying to debate me off of that one point. Yes, intrinsic reward value has a lot to do with keeping players motivated to play. It's one of the big reasons S SCoB had low PARTICIPATION rates. We don't even need to look at clears, just participation, something that has been validated by the live letters as well. It was one of the main points of feedback, by many players at the time, that titles alone were not a big enough carrot to make people step up at try savage.
There needs to be a reward structure in this game redesigned from raiding to expert dungeons. That has been one of my primary positions. What you fail to understand that I have included points like boring content or nothing to use the gear on as well, in this very thread.

But they do not need exclusivity. While the average player may not bother with obscene grinds or repetition, those outside that category generally want things immediately. Waiting a year because it might be nerfed isn't appealing because they want it now.

If people want stuff now, why is my server, cactaur, a party finder ghost town? I don't see the PF filling up with bird farms or a4s mount farms. Really, our PF is dead and this scenario echos across many servers. People know that the bird mounts will get a increase in their drop rate and that grinding for them now is made much more tedious because of a lower drop rate and a lower ilvl.

This problems echos across casual and hardcore content alike. It's a very real problem and since I know you dragged some bs anecdotal evidence below into this 'debate' so will I. I co-lead a raid team, the same team actually since October 2013. As you can imagine I have had several raiders on my roster throughout the years. I have lost count on how many times I have heard something similar to "it's not worth it, the rewards are terrible."

Those complaints got way worse in heavensward and increased in frequency when the difficulties of raiding skyrocketed and the rewards widely remained the same or worse. Yoshi P. asked more of his raiding community with alex savage without greatly supplementing the reward carrot. If anything, with no story in savage and normal mode getting the same exact gear model, the raiding rewards became worse.

It does not really matter though, I can't really make a case on anecdotal evidence.

A list you did not provide for several pages of debate, yet only now saw fit to actually mention when specifically speaking to me? No, it doesn't count you posted it earlier because we weren't debating at that time. Nice try though.

It was a concise example of things I have said in this thread. Go back and do your diligence with posts I made in this thread before you go off making pretend debates with people.

PotD has been queuing fine. The most vocal of complaints have nothing to do with rewards, but that the content itself is far too easy and boring. People have been asking for objectives, mechanics and more dynamic content like sudden boss battles.

Queuing fine? I had to wait five mins the other day during prime time for content that has no party structure, and this content is barely a month old. /facedesk

My argument has been we haven't had overly compelling content. Thus, it isn't the rewards causing an issue, but the content itself not being engaging enough to keep people interested. If Gordias were better tuned, dungeons posed some degree of a challenge and we weren't merely grinding tomestones every week, you likely wouldn't see a decline in subs even if rewards more or less remained unchanged. I know, and have spoken directly, to enough raiders who express a similar sentiment. There just isn't enough to do once they've got Alexander on farm or have reached a point where progression seems entirely bleak. Rewards aren't a factor here.

And if you read my very first reply to this thread, you would know that I also feel the content itself sucks on it's own merits. Also, I don't care how many raiders you have talked to, that's anecdotal evidence and someone who is trying to debate should know the pitfalls of using such claims. /smirk

Congratulations. I overly exaggerated by not specifying after Vanilla. Fair enough, my fault. Good to see you're so humble about it. Would you like a medal?

God, you are incapable of being correct about being factually wrong! allow me to fix your apology for you..

Congratulations. I overly exaggerated by not specifying after wrath of the lich king. Fair enough, my fault. Good to see you're so humble about it. Would you like a medal?

Lol, it was not just vanilla, it was two expansions out.

SWTOR had far more problems that led to its decline; chief among them being it lost a substantial amount of money. Say what you will about FFXIV, however it's proven exceptionally profitable for Square. A MMO dipping to roughly 500k subs when in a content drought, alongside numerous other talked about issues, going up against two extremely hyped new games (Legion and No Man's Sky) and an equally hyped FFXV isn't all that surprising. Does FFXIV need some attention; perhaps even a redirection in certain attributes? Yes. Is it a dying game on the cusp of becoming F2P? Not even remotely.

I never said that there was one single issue that took down SWTOR, I just merely used it as an example of what happens to game when they hover around that 500k sub mark. Also, this 25% sub loss that led to an active 510k active players did not happen during the current content drought. If you actually look at the stats broken down month by month, subs have been in decline for close to seven months. In seven months we have had plenty of content come out. Don't use a content drought as some scapegoat. This game had a net sub loss after midas came out and raid patches are as big as content patches come in this game.

This game is definitely on the cusp of F2P, it's in the same exact state that SWTOR was before it went F2P. The end game sucks and active subs are plummeting.

I don't. Funny how opinions work, hmm?

lol, we're supposed to be debating, according to you at least, but your retorts to legitimate points are "I don't." You know, I was just using 'logic hero' just to be provocative, but now I really think you are playing logic hero, you seem to have some sort of debate switch that you flip on and off while writing these long form replies, lol. Learn to be consistent if you actually want to debate.

Jokes aside, your whole argument has boiled around your opinion being the correct one. You do not get to abruptly add a whole new argument into a debate-- thereby changing what I initially disagreed with -- and then claiming how reasonable your stance has been.

Yes, I think my argument is the correct one. LOL But let me just say before you get all hyped that you got me. Just because I think I am right does not mean I think you are not entitled to your opinion.

I did not drag in an entirely different argument, the same points on that list are littered throughout my replies in this thread. Even in my very first reply to this thread, I can quote myself as saying:

Dungeons are too easy, there is no hard 4-man content anymore. We need more dungeons like the original amdapor keep, where players are challenged at a reasonable level. How will players ever step up their game if we only have toothless pinatas for dungeon bosses? Hell, half the time people don't even need to perform mechanics in dungeon fights.

You can tell that people are hungry for depth in this game by how well wiping city was received when it first came out. People loved that the new 24-man was not a loot pinata netflix set of encounters.

That is from my first reply in this thread, my very first one. You did not bother to actually find out what my position was in this thread, you cherry picked one of my responses and assumed it to be my entire position. Again, you playing at logic hero in a pretend debate you constructed in your head. If you are going to attempt to debate someone so vigorously in a thread, perhaps you should go back and read my original reply?

You also seem to like professing how I supposedly think of you or am someway bothered by your opinions. Once again, hun, I'm replying to you on an Internet forum. You mean as much to me as any other random person here. If you want to think otherwise. Good for you, I guess?

You keep replying right? lol I could not care less if you replied or not, but please, stop acting. I have trouble getting my students to write more than a page, why? They don't care. You are giving me pages and pages of entertainment, I think you care, if even just a little. It's cute to be frank. I think I can even hear the sound of keystrokes speeding up when you think you are onto some good point, lol.

numnumnumnum

The only ifs were your broad proclamations about Legion stealing away more subs and if BiS slot were dropped in PotD and if I could just see your glorious point because you know everything. That last one came up rather frequently

.

This is directly from the legion comment you keep referencing.

If legion hits it out of the park, this game could easily lose another 150k subs. This game can survive on it's current amount of subs, but another 150k hit could easily eject this game from the sub model right into the garbage free to play market where it belongs.

There was a HUGE 'IF' statement there. You missed it, just like you miss a lot of the points I make since you are so fixated on being right.

Posting on a game's forum that you are essentially giddy it will crash and burn, is trolling.

No, it is not. I am not hiding my hand here. I am not trying to bait people into emotional response. If you think me being honest about how I feel about this game amounts to trolling, maybe you are the one who has the problem with other people's opinions?

And about that bold bit. I just noticed your little list... was posted in an entirely different thread, yet you expected me to not only know of it but used it as a rebuttal in a complete separate debate where none of those points were ever mentioned by either of us until you quoted yourself. I guess those nuisances require telepathy.

Yes, I think I even openly admit to it being from another thread? This is quoted right above the list I gave...

You are cherry picking my posts and assuming my position solely rests on the idea that everything needs to be rare. Here, I will quote myself from another thread...

You

don't

even

read

my

responses

well


The reason I gave that list was to show you that you were indeed cherry picking my posts. Even in this thread, in my very first reply, I list other problems with this game outside of loot and rarity. You are so fixated on this pretend debate and being right that you are straight up missing half of the posts I am making. Don't you see how foolish you look? You are making a point about the list coming from a different thread when I told you that already?

Lol, this is just tooooooooo rich.

I did. Shame you only brought it up several posts later, when it had nothing to do with our arguments. And from a completely different thread. To be fair, it seems like all you have are "issues with this game," but how about you bring them up initially if you want to debate their merits, not several posts later when the whole debate originated with mount drop rates and exclusives.

Nope, you are factually wrong, My first reply in this thread and many replies following that post highlighted many facets that were included on that list. I was merely providing you a concise list, one of which I was very upfront about the origin of.

Great! Shame it has nothing to do with what we've disagreed on. This really cannot be made clearer. You feel, and you can correct me otherwise, rewards play a significant enough factor in people's motivations that nerfs such as drop rates contribute to sub decline. I don't agree. Any other talking point is irrelevant because that's the one we've been talking about.

You will know when I am trying to correct you, I will say you are factually wrong. Otherwise, I am just rolling around in the internet mud with you, oink!~

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that any posts in this thread that fall in line with that list don't exist, but that is on you.

No, I didn't. You never brought them up until posting that list only one post ago. Am I expected to read your mind after your quote of my post pertained only to drop rates and rewards in general? And there you go once again presuming. My only mentions of possibly agreeing with you were to specifically highlight nowhere near as vehemently nor on everything.

No, I don't assume you to read minds. What I do assume is that if you are going to make a lousy attempt at debate, at least read my position within the thread? That's what I expect of you. It's so simple these days too, you only need to look at my forum profile and it's all there for you.

What you did was tantamount to creating a strawman. You focused in on part of my position, assumed it was my entire stance despite my posts in this thread proving it's not, and initiated some form of weak sauce debate in response to what? one, maybe two paragraphs?

You quoted me, sweetheart. That post way above... is your first reply to me. Why would I like to dig around for your opinions in another thread when you didn't present them to me? Doing so now doesn't matter as it's essentially a different topic.

lol, sweetheart, I LOVE IT. I just want you to know, every time I saw you use that in this thread it put a huge smile on my face. You are too easy.

On a serious note, if you are going to rebuttal to a paragraph or two with a long form response, you should do your due diligence. At least I can admit when I make assumptions ($65) where as you seem incapable of admitting to your foibles.

You wanted to play logic hero, yet you could not even be bothered to read my first reply to this thread before writing a long form crapola rebuttal.


I have had fun, but you actually irritated me with this last reply. It was over this:

And about that bold bit. I just noticed your little list... was posted in an entirely different thread, yet you expected me to not only know of it but used it as a rebuttal in a complete separate debate where none of those points were ever mentioned by either of us until you quoted yourself. I guess those nuisances require telepathy.

My list was self admittedly from another thread. I even said it right before quoting the list. What really irritates me is that you think you are so clever, like you discovered some hole in my reply because you "caught" me quoting a different thread. How can you even claim to be having a debate when you are not reading half of the stuff you reply to? You missed my position about reasonable nerfs. You missed my qualifying statement about legion being successful and you missed my disclaimer about that list. You claim I don't care what you have to say, but it's clear from how you break down your replies, you don't really care yourself.

Yet, here you are, playing logic hero, not even reading my posts well enough to know that you are making moot points half the time.

I don't really see the point in replying to you further because you will just miss another sentence somewhere, think you discovered some great point, and claim interwebz victory. I mean, I am a lot of bad things, but at least I am considerate enough to read your responses before replying to them.

Maybe you should go take a rage BM before posting? You keep missing stuff right and left and it's becoming easier and easier to point it out. Good job, debate justice has been served by your righteous hand today!

[Duelle]

You're wrong. Wow had a decade of great sub numbers with a system that favored long term subscribers. You are offering nothing but a slippery slope argument here. A game can both be rewarding to it's long term players and welcoming to new players.

The reason it works in WoW is because they have catch ups with dungeon gear, crafted gear and Justice/Valor gear to get geared up. And it's something that is often complained about (my epics are not truly epic, lolwelfare epics, etc).

Of course, the other thing is that stuff felt like it lasted because you waited near-eternities between patches. I don't think you want to be stuck with only Alexander Midas for 8 months just so that you can claim your savage gear lasted longer. And this is something actual WoW players complain about a lot, which is why they complained about 11 months of Siege of Orgrimmar and the duldrums Warlords of Draenor saw until the pre-Legion patch.

I have plenty of issues outside of loot, mounts, and minions. This game is in trouble on multiple fronts. I do agree with you on the legion part. This game is losing more and more players to legion. Wow is doing what it does best, taking the best parts of other games and adapting them for better use.

For example, where do you think blizzard got the idea of the artifact weapon and guild halls from? It's going to take content misgivings of FFXIV and turn them into something amazing in wow. Have you even seen the artifact weapons yet? They even give me pause asking why I ever worked on a relic in this game.

Blizzard is going to keep snatching up more and more ffxiv players with legion. If the expansion is even half as good as it looks, FFXIV won't have another WoD flop to benefit from. This games days are numbered and the thought puts a grin of my face every time.

Blizzard is deciding to appeal to nostalgia, and Legion is pretty much WoD v2 with a couple of lessons learned (and really, instead of being all "omg orcs and Grom Hellscream" it's pretty much "omg demons and Illidan"). Artifacts are not something to take seriously, especially when taking into account the culture the original legendaries fostered (weapons that took an entire guild's combined efforts to get for one person) without even getting into how most of the artifacts were literally pulled out of someone's ass just to create one for every spec. And not mentioning the ire some have expressed at seeing a trillion people with Ashbringer, The Scythe of Elune and so on.

Granted, FFXIV's approach to relics is no better, but at least Excalibur, Longinus and Nothung were not prominently featured in the story content wielded by hero NPCs before they were given out like candy to all player characters.

The easiness of Alexander Normal might has to do with it and I won't argue that stepping up the difficulty would be a good thing. To still cater to the casual crowd they could implement temporary HP/AP-boosts like the sanction spell of the GC (i.e. let them do a Task/quest of ~0,5-1h to get a 2h echo-like boost just for the current normal raid) or something like that.

But I think what most people turned of was the overall design of alexander compared with coils... I mean, even when they didn't implement normal mode, what would you think about Gordias' epicness? Well in the end, it's just robots and goblins.
Mide is no Louisoix and Twinkledinx is no Nael deus Darnus and they'll never be.

This is probably a result of wanting to make raids sort of side stories of their own. This is something the devs stated as their intention during the design phase and beta. Of course, the advantage Coil had was that it was build up over the course of the MSQ in ARR as a background detail. Alexander didn't have this at all; in fact, I feel that if Mide had been someone you ran into once in a while during the MSQ and they had done something to build up Alexander, it wouldn't feel as lackluster to some.

Diadem failed, but not in terms of reward I think, but instead 'cause of the overall design. I.e. I just don't believe Diadem would be good if the rewards for grinding hours of Dino Island were "meaningful"... it's still a boring grind and only 'cause I'm 'happy' to get my gear finally (is it really happiness or is it just relief that it's finally over?!) doesn't make the content itself better or worse.

Agreed. You'd have people begrudgingly doing it for the reward, but in concept it's not really fun. I guess as an actual raid it could have worked (granted, it would need a lot of changes in design); would probably work a lot like Firelands.