Pld Oath's on GCD

[Brannigan]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used.

What you need to specify is that you're talking about current HP, not max. You're saying that if, for example, PLD/DRK stances were off GCD and all three tanks tried to switch just before a tank buster hit, the paladin and dark knight would survive (assuming the server registered it, sup) but the warrior would not because his current HP doesn't go up while paladin and dark knight mitigation applies.

And to that I say so what? Warrior should have some weaknesses just like paladin and dark knight do.

Anyway, that Yoshi-P quote is almost certainly referencing pre-rework warrior, which was just weak. Warrior might require a small amount of technical skill more than the other two tanks to completely max out offensively, but defensively it's about the same, just with more flexible options. Let's not kid ourselves here - none of this is rocket surgery and anyone who's actually doing the raids (which is the only place balance like this really matters) is probably capable of picking up any tank and figuring it out within a few hours. Even if warrior required double shoryuken inputs for some of its moves and advanced degrees in MMOlogy it wouldn't excuse imbalance.

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

[Lyth]

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

You'd also have to do something about Divine Veil and Hallowed Ground, which by far are two of the most powerful defensive cooldowns that any tank has access to. While we're at it Sheltron, Dark Mind, and Inner Beast could all stand to be brought into parity. Every tank could benefit from a shield.

While a certain amount of homogenisation is necessary, I don't think that you need to remove their individual advantages to make them balanced. It's more important to be able to cover individual weaknesses on any given tank with alternate compositions. Delirium/Dragon Kick is easily accessible to every combination of tank (this is how every essential raid debuff should be designed). RoH is PLD exclusive, but doesn't provide as much raid utility as the other tanks' debuffs.

Divine Veil, Reprisal, and Storm's Path all have their strengths and weaknesses. DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far. Storm's Path is the most available, but costs dps to apply. Reprisal doesn't cost dps to use and has good uptime, but requires a parry proc.

[Lambdafish]

DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far.

DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

[Lyth]

DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

DV shouldn't be used on a whim. You plan its usage in advance, ideally with your healers. There are a lot of heals that will proc it, including AoE heals and shields. It doesn't really matter if you're MT or not. In fact, it's also the only one of the three skills that can be used in the absence of a target.

SP is more readily available (at the cost of dps), but if you need a large amount of mitigation for a single big AoE, DV is unsurpassed.

That is the problem, actually. WAR has a great skillset with a bunch of useful stuff, both for tanking and support. DRK got a copy of PLD's basic skillset with a magic twist, then a bunch of duplicated skills to just increase its own dps. DRK could easily lose 5 skills and gain slightly more potency on its combos to make up for that. Reprisal (procs are a big part of why PLD/DRK have to tank, and DRK already has Delirium for damage reduction), Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain and Plunge (could have gapcloser moved to a DA effect) are pretty much all just used for dps and waste slots. What would go in those slots? I don't know, it would be up to SE to add stuff that would make DRKs feel powerful and useful to a party. PLD could use the same on skills like Cover and Tempered Will (they're too niche) but at least it's on the right path with Clemency and Divine Veil.

DRK's playstyle is designed to be fast paced. Blood Weapon, and the numerous oGCDs that we get are part of what give the job its style. If you want to play something which only requires you to play with half the APM, then there are already jobs that cater to that, like BLM and WAR.

[Launched]

DRK's playstyle is designed to be fast paced. Blood Weapon, and the numerous oGCDs that we get are part of what give the job its style. If you want to play something which only requires you to play with half the APM, then there are already jobs that cater to that, like BLM and WAR.

DRK's playstyle is uninteresting and holding it back from being as well designed as WAR. NIN and MNK are the fast jobs, If SE wanted DRK to be fast they should have done it in a way that doesn't waste so many skill slots.

[Lyth]

DRK's playstyle is uninteresting and holding it back from being as well designed as WAR. NIN and MNK are the fast jobs, If SE wanted DRK to be fast they should have done it in a way that doesn't waste so many skill slots.

It depends on the fight, really. In fights where you have negligible Grit uptime, such as A7S, your BW usage pushes up your APM significantly. In fact, there are a couple of examples of early progression clears where the DRK actually marginally beats out the MNK, NIN, and MCH in terms of APM. This might also be dependent on jail assignments, but it's still somewhat surprising to see.

I love the design. It doesn't need to be childproofed. A bit of challenge is good for us.

Thats my point, I never said that DV was bad, just not comparable to SP. There are mechanics that it is good for (every single 2H in the game, nidhoggs ahk morn and other stack mechanics etc.), but it is very situational, whereas a WAR can keep SP on the boss at all times. Thinking about it, the comparable skills are really RoH and SP, as they both reduce damage, at the cost of DPS. The difference here is that SP is better than RoH (slightly lower potency for a much better effect).

RoH is a bit of a strange one. It tends to be more of a personal benefit to the PLD than it is a raid debuff, given the relative scarcity of physical AoEs.

[Lambdafish]

RoH is a bit of a strange one. It tends to be more of a personal benefit to the PLD than it is a raid debuff, given the relative scarcity of physical AoEs.

RoH is basically the PLD of skills (perfect really), it is great in physical fights (amazing in Thordan), and useless in magic based fights. SP is better in that it gives a 10% damage down (i.e. all damage, not just physical), AND absorbs HP from the hit.

[SpookyGhost]

I love the design. It doesn't need to be childproofed. A bit of challenge is good for us.

IMO, it's less a problem of it being "challenging" and more that they shoved a bunch of DPS oGCDs... on a tank. It's like, imagine they threw Rampart, Sentinel, and [HG equivalent] on DRG - that's basically DRK in terms of playstyle. DRK functions fine, don't get me wrong, it just kinda feels like you're playing a DPS who has to be in front of the boss.

[Lambdafish]

DV shouldn't be used on a whim. You plan its usage in advance, ideally with your healers.

Thats my point, I never said that DV was bad, just not comparable to SP. There are mechanics that it is good for (every single 2H in the game, nidhoggs ahk morn and other stack mechanics etc.), but it is very situational, whereas a WAR can keep SP on the boss at all times. Thinking about it, the comparable skills are really RoH and SP, as they both reduce damage, at the cost of DPS. The difference here is that SP is better than RoH (slightly lower potency for a much better effect).