Pld Oath's on GCD

[Lyth]

snip

I don't think that the post that you linked explains why WAR's stances are oGCD. It's referencing the fact that, prior to 2.1, Wrath stacks granted a bonus to healing rather than crit. Inner Beast represented a trade-off: either hold on to your stacks to keep up your bonus to self healing, or expend them for a 300% self-heal. 2.1 changed the self-healing bonus to be an intrinsic part of Defiance, and made Wrath give a bonus to crit. This in turn was later changed into a parry bonus with 3.0 due to the introduction of Deliverance.

You are correct to point out that WAR does not gain an instantaneous bonus in eHP on switching stance. The flip-side to this is that the cost of stance dancing is usually paid by your healer. Also, even in the event that you don't correctly plan your stance dancing in advance, you do have the largest and most powerful collection of instantaneous self-heals at your disposal out of any tank.

The biggest cost to stance-dancing on WAR used to be the fact that it cost you your stacks prior to 3.0, which could be considered analogous to the MP costs on PLD/DRK. This was removed with the introduction of Deliverance, because it allowed you to keep your stacks.

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

While you're right to point out that the numbers for Defiance look off, I think that the example was designed to illustrate that WAR doesn't get an instantaneous eHP benefit from stance dancing.

The tankbuster in the example hits for 10k after considering gear but before considering damage reduction buffs. If you swap into Grit/Shield Oath during the cast, the effect is instantaneous and you take 8k damage. If you swap into Defiance during the cast, you are still sitting at 10k HP, but your max HP is now 12.5 k. If you don't get topped off during this interval (either by yourself or the healer), you take 10k and die. This usually isn't an issue though.

[Sweetgrass]

This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

[Lambdafish]

Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

Agreed. Marxam, your anaylsis (while nice) is of a 1 for 1 on the two skills. Doing a 1 for 1 on holmgang and hallowed ground will tell you that PLD is OP, but that isn't the case. Making the oaths off GCD won't affect ShO in the slightest but will make it easier to switch into SwO a lot more, which will make it easier for the job to do more damage, which is the key thing that holds the job back currently.

Here's and old post that I feel best explains why warriors have their stances off gcd.

This post is also from 2.0 and explains why WAR was changed, and does not compare it to PLD. It was also made before 3.0 skills (of both PLD and WAR), and before DRK affected the tanking meta.

[shao32]

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

or you know, nerf WAR, a tank how can survive without a healer and dealt max dps its pretty insane, sure SE dont touch the WAR now bcs they have a weak balance bethwen tanks and they are touching the parry now for 3.8 - 4.0, in any case whe need to have a global view of the other roles to think in what tanks needs, for mi view point PLD and DRK are pretty fine, they have they strong and weak point and they can dealt every conten witout a problem, WAR in other hand have the best dps and the best set of mitigation plus selfheals making the job the one man army thats is now, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

and for the OT spot don't matter if WAR was underpower compared to the other tanks, if they still have the best dps and those raid supports they still get secure the OT spot, to kick WAR for the OT spot whe need some changes in hem capabilities and a new tank how offer similar level of raid support.

[Sweetgrass]

or you know, nerf WAR, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

The problem is that if they did this, the content would have to be nerfed to compensate. Non-DPS slashing debuff, a damage down that works on Darkness damage(Darkness damage shouldn't even exist in the first place), and burst damage from Berserk are indispensable, the solution is not to nerf what's strong, it's to make the other choices more competitive.

PLD/DRK have nothing to compete with in an offtank position currently, but off GCD tank stance might make the gap a little smaller.

[shao32]

snip.

you speak like WAR damage / tank damage in genera is indispensable to clear content whe the devs say already the dps checks are now made without healer and extremly high tank dps in mind.

i say nerf war like a option but i dont say what, the conten is already pretty easy to do, healers are pretty over at the level whe have a main healer and a off healer how only dealt some shileds X time and the rest is dps, whe have a lot of extra dps from healers and tanks already.

war is a paradox, a high dps tank but mitigate at the level of a paladin and vry close to drk in magic, self heals to the level to don't need a healer in may scenarios, infinite resources management plus buff slashing damage on 3 jobs at hem self and have one of the best raid mitigations moves, thats not a tank thats is a god, the str meta prove that and the vit meta chain hem a little and is still the best in everything.
my question is in this game whe have to work together to compensate the flaws of the others and move forward together, ¿how you compensate the flaws from a job how have none?

[SpookyGhost]

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

[Launched]

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR. DRK and PLD offer nothing together because they're too similar. DRK should have been its own unique job that worked with either PLD or WAR, instead we got something that competes with PLD and can only work with WAR. I really don't think copying the mechanics of one job to "fix" the others is a good idea, they should all be unique with their own advantages and disadvantages instead of clones with off-GCD tank stances, slashing debuffs and a % damage reduction debuff.

[Lyth]

I don't think that stances are the issue.

Jobs in similar roles show variations in raid utility and individual dps. This is usually balanced in other roles by allowing a job which brings less individual dps to compensate by boosting your teammates' dps.

The problem with tanks is that they are differentiated on the basis of mitigation and individual dps. However, mitigation is pass-fail, so every tank is designed to be capable of surviving a fight when actively tanking. Having a mitigation advantage in a fight only matters if it translates into more time out of stance while actively tanking. If you can stay out of stance for the entire fight regardless of what tank you pick, then the highest dps tank gives you the biggest advantage. This is part of the reason why WAR is a permanent fixture in every composition, and why double WAR can be optimal in fights where the damage output is trivial or occurs in short bursts.

The other reason is Storm's Eye, and the fact that there's no incentive for NIN to use Dancing Edge with a WAR present, outside of not having access to a rear positional. NIN might as well not have the debuff. As a result, WAR brings the most benefit to both individual and raid dps.

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things. First, you would need DE to be dps optimal for NIN, irrespective of whether a WAR was present. Second, you would need a fight where both tanks were forced into stance usage simultaneously for a good portion of the fight (i.e. both actively tanking and receiving non-trivial damage) In such a situation, the ease with which you could stay out of stance on PLD or DRK with bonus cooldowns might translate into a dps advantage.

In the absence of such a fight design, it's silly to design the tanks with differing levels of individual dps output.

[Sweetgrass]

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"
real funny, this is why SE will never listen to NA forums for balancing

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things.

No, you need one to even start with. A reason to bring them that isn't "so we don't get nerfed LB from 2 WAR", which doesn't exist right now.