Pld Oath's on GCD

[SpookyGhost]

SE and SP are realistically too strong, especially for progression. NIN needs enough gear to outweigh needing to apply DE in a DRK/PLD comp and then you'd only be equal with a lesser geared NIN + DRK(PLD)/WAR group. It's doable at that level, so you could argue that it's balanced enough, but that comp's viability is completely lost in early progression. The only thing you gain from going DRK/PLD is access to both Reprisal and Divine Veil, which neither outweigh the loss of SP.

WAR doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed, though. You could give DRK and PLD unique advantages that outweighed (or equaled, preferably) having SE + SP from WAR. You could also make DE DPS optimal, WAR or no WAR, and that might round out the DPS inefficiency at least.

[Lambdafish]

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"

Launched thinks the problem is DRK because it messed with the tank meta and became too similar to PLD, when the WAR/PLD dynamic worked in 2.x. I however think you are both wrong, and PLD is the problem. The class has nothing unique going for it over the other two jobs, and has a toolkit that is trying to do too many different things that don't synergise (i.e too many situational skills that will never/situationally get used - tempered will, cover, awareness, clemency, divine veil etc.) and the job is trying to be both a wall and a support job (the more interesting of the two). To see what PLD should be, play it in pvp, where it is immensely fun to play.

As well as this we have the low damage output, clunky GCD, and lack of any gameplay gimmick (wrath stacks and darkside being WAR and DRKs), and we have a job contributes less and is thus left out of the meta.

[Launched]

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"

That is the problem, actually. WAR has a great skillset with a bunch of useful stuff, both for tanking and support. DRK got a copy of PLD's basic skillset with a magic twist, then a bunch of duplicated skills to just increase its own dps. DRK could easily lose 5 skills and gain slightly more potency on its combos to make up for that. Reprisal (procs are a big part of why PLD/DRK have to tank, and DRK already has Delirium for damage reduction), Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain and Plunge (could have gapcloser moved to a DA effect) are pretty much all just used for dps and waste slots. What would go in those slots? I don't know, it would be up to SE to add stuff that would make DRKs feel powerful and useful to a party. PLD could use the same on skills like Cover and Tempered Will (they're too niche) but at least it's on the right path with Clemency and Divine Veil.

I'm pretty glad I'm not NA.

[shao32]

im alwais find funny hor the WAR is supose to be the dps tank, with high dps, low mitigation and a lot of self heals, and then the have the WAR here with vengeance, the best of the 3 plus low recast, inner beast no recast only 6 seconds but up every time you have 5 stacks, in 2.x i find this 2 good bcs are a nice tool kit to compared to paladin, but now in 3.0 with raw intuition and equilibrium.

my point is now i see the tanks whe have 4 thinks, 1 personal dps,2 raid support, 3 personal mitigation and 4 self heals.

when
PLD is: 1 low, 2 middle, 3 high, 4 middle
DRK is: 1 middle-high, 2 low, 3 middle phisical high magic and 4 low
WAR is: 1 HIGH, 2 HIGH, 3 HIGH, 4 HIGH

[Marxam]

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used. Spooky is right in this regard. I can't find the source but I remember Yoshi comparing WAR to PLD like driving a manual car and automatic car respectively. With warrior you have full control of your defensive and offensive actions and take into account when and how to use them. With paladin it's like automatic, you simply use a skill and the rest takes care of itself. Their tank stance reflect this with warriors being very flexible while paladin's being rigid.

[Brannigan]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used.

What you need to specify is that you're talking about current HP, not max. You're saying that if, for example, PLD/DRK stances were off GCD and all three tanks tried to switch just before a tank buster hit, the paladin and dark knight would survive (assuming the server registered it, sup) but the warrior would not because his current HP doesn't go up while paladin and dark knight mitigation applies.

And to that I say so what? Warrior should have some weaknesses just like paladin and dark knight do.

Anyway, that Yoshi-P quote is almost certainly referencing pre-rework warrior, which was just weak. Warrior might require a small amount of technical skill more than the other two tanks to completely max out offensively, but defensively it's about the same, just with more flexible options. Let's not kid ourselves here - none of this is rocket surgery and anyone who's actually doing the raids (which is the only place balance like this really matters) is probably capable of picking up any tank and figuring it out within a few hours. Even if warrior required double shoryuken inputs for some of its moves and advanced degrees in MMOlogy it wouldn't excuse imbalance.

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

[Lyth]

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

You'd also have to do something about Divine Veil and Hallowed Ground, which by far are two of the most powerful defensive cooldowns that any tank has access to. While we're at it Sheltron, Dark Mind, and Inner Beast could all stand to be brought into parity. Every tank could benefit from a shield.

While a certain amount of homogenisation is necessary, I don't think that you need to remove their individual advantages to make them balanced. It's more important to be able to cover individual weaknesses on any given tank with alternate compositions. Delirium/Dragon Kick is easily accessible to every combination of tank (this is how every essential raid debuff should be designed). RoH is PLD exclusive, but doesn't provide as much raid utility as the other tanks' debuffs.

Divine Veil, Reprisal, and Storm's Path all have their strengths and weaknesses. DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far. Storm's Path is the most available, but costs dps to apply. Reprisal doesn't cost dps to use and has good uptime, but requires a parry proc.

[Lambdafish]

DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far.

DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

[Lyth]

DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

DV shouldn't be used on a whim. You plan its usage in advance, ideally with your healers. There are a lot of heals that will proc it, including AoE heals and shields. It doesn't really matter if you're MT or not. In fact, it's also the only one of the three skills that can be used in the absence of a target.

SP is more readily available (at the cost of dps), but if you need a large amount of mitigation for a single big AoE, DV is unsurpassed.

That is the problem, actually. WAR has a great skillset with a bunch of useful stuff, both for tanking and support. DRK got a copy of PLD's basic skillset with a magic twist, then a bunch of duplicated skills to just increase its own dps. DRK could easily lose 5 skills and gain slightly more potency on its combos to make up for that. Reprisal (procs are a big part of why PLD/DRK have to tank, and DRK already has Delirium for damage reduction), Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain and Plunge (could have gapcloser moved to a DA effect) are pretty much all just used for dps and waste slots. What would go in those slots? I don't know, it would be up to SE to add stuff that would make DRKs feel powerful and useful to a party. PLD could use the same on skills like Cover and Tempered Will (they're too niche) but at least it's on the right path with Clemency and Divine Veil.

DRK's playstyle is designed to be fast paced. Blood Weapon, and the numerous oGCDs that we get are part of what give the job its style. If you want to play something which only requires you to play with half the APM, then there are already jobs that cater to that, like BLM and WAR.

[Lambdafish]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used.

In that case then the WAR has worse gear than the other two tanks... In the exact same gear the WAR would have more health (about equivalent to the 20% damage reduction), or else the healers aren't doing their job properly (even then you have the most self heals of any job).

Defiance has a 25% HP buff and 20% healing buff, which really is very equivalent to a 20% damage reduction with no healing buff, it just means that HP goes up and down by bigger numbers, the healers don't have to work any harder on tank busters. On top of this, defiance generates wrath stacks which increases parry rate (unimportant but should not be ignored), and gives you access to the unchained skill which negates the damage penalty. Remind me again why ShO is OP in comparison?