Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

[Ibi]

What exactly do you want? Was the scores of casual content from LoV, Aquapolis, Diadem, Alex normal, PoTD etc etc etc not good enough?

As Thayos already pointed out, you've completely missed the point. Again. We're not talking about casual content.

We're talking about challenging end game content other than Savage raiding. Even WoW is adding things like world events, Mythic+ dungeons in 7.0 and the large scale dungeon with the revamped Karazahn in 7.1. FFXI had a ton of endgame content that was nothing like Savage raiding, plenty of which could be adapted into content for XIV.

lol, your idea is what we have in this game is now and it's a big flop.

If you honestly believe that adding things like mounts, titles, and glamours to raiding would do more for sub retention than increasing the variety of challenging end game content, you're either delusional or hilariously out of touch.

[Mraj]

At present the only thing people have going for them in this game is having "x equipment" - which means very little already.

MMOs as a genre also build upon themselves in terms of gear, achievements ( personal and game recognized ), and trials overcome. For example, not everyone can instantly entering Heavensward content - one of the few gates for the game. The game also isn't just a pick up and play, though it's heavily marketed as being 'accessible'. The current system of gear equalization may seem friendly to new and returning players, but it doesn't have the content to back it up. That's the reason we have such huge population dips between patches or players that silently move on.

When we're all done with the easy to clear, just-do-it-to-get-it-done content, and standing around idling in Idyllshire, decked out in weekly gear for months on end with nothing to use it towards, I wonder if feelings of accomplishment and satisfaction are surfacing. By now, players are overly familiar with the patch cycles. The new dungeons are not making use of the gear upgrades we got - and that nearly everyone can get if they run content once a week - with several catch up periods only serving to further highlight the lack of content.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: There needs to be an endgame area - large and open world or multiple instanced areas that allow players to enjoy non-scripted content after they have all their gear, or have finished raiding. Perhaps Diadem will be refashioned for this purpose - or something else can be added. Right now, at the end of the patch cycle, we're all armed to the teeth, but we know that the next patch cycle won't provide much in the way of utilizing said gear outside of raids. Motivation to play drops because everything is obtainable easily and there's little incentive to do content. One could point to PvP, but that's been on a downturn and quick access to it for most players is not happening ( again, because of the current systems in place ).

Palace of the Dead has potential, and I'm interested in them expanding it, but it doesn't quite fill the niche I'm speaking of ( gear dependent ).

[zosia]

As Thayos already pointed out, you've completely missed the point. Again. We're not talking about casual content.

We're talking about challenging end game content other than Savage raiding. Even WoW is adding things like world events, Mythic+ dungeons in 7.0 and the large scale dungeon with the revamped Karazahn in 7.1. FFXI had a ton of endgame content that was nothing like Savage raiding, plenty of which could be adapted into content for XIV.

Why did players participate in Mythic dungeons in wow? Why did players participate in dynamis, sea, sky, etc? What are one of the primary end goal of these activities, especially repeat clears? Power progression. People wanted powerful cool looking gear that enhance their character. What you don't seem to understand is that you guys HAVE plenty of diversified content, it's just not very compelling to do. Why? Because the rewards suck from the top down. Casual players have 24 mans, new experts, hunts, gordias and midas normal, the relic. There is plenty of casual content, but the rewards and the acquisition methods for the relic are TERRIBLE!

Also, anything that gives eso, law, lore, etc is work towards progressing your characters power past the level cap I.E. END GAME CONTENT!!!!!!

If you guys wanted more challenging content, maybe there shouldn't have been so much defending of SE catering to the lowest common denominator. This is the bed the non-raiding casual community wanted, and it's glorious! That white armor polish definitely doubles as game polish too... maybe? lol

If you honestly believe that adding things like mounts, titles, and glamours to raiding would do more for sub retention than increasing the variety of challenging end game content, you're either delusional or hilariously out of touch.

Let me quote myself since you obviously missed it with your first read through.

It's a big part of the point. The raid rewards sucking is the same pattern dragging down the rest of the game.

Now, please pull your head out of rear please and understand that until the reward structure is fixed from top to bottom, for both raiders and casuals, that content will simply remain underwhelming and people will not be compelled to retain their sub. You can't just fix the bottom end of the reward latter and forget the top, that does not make for a sound latter.

[Remus]

Just want to make something clear about this census. The way they determined if a character is active is:

• Must be Level 36 or higher
• The amount of minions/mounts have changed since the last census (20th April)
• Must have had a change in HP since the last census they done of 20th of April (so increase of ilvl, increase in level, change of gear)
• Didn't exist since the last census 20th april
• Obtained at least one mount

Remember its active characters. This is how they determined if you are a active character.

[Thayos]

If you guys wanted more challenging content, maybe there shouldn't have been so much defending of SE catering to the lowest common denominator.

Except I'm not talking about that... that's a completely different conversation. And that's also something I'd never do.

Zosia, your last reply to me was all over the map. For the most part, I think you agree with me... but you seem to think I view things such as Weeping City, Deep Dungeons (not even a level-cap activity) and Aquapolis (really?) as progression endgame, which is absurd. I very plainly said these things are NOT true endgame.

To quote myself again, for clarity:

Except the only thing in this entire list (Zosia's recently posted list of primals, Weeping City, Aquapolis, LoV, etc.) that counts as true endgame is Primals... and Primals are really just single-floor raids. They're heavily scripted eight-man fights with extremely punishing mechanics that are only efficiently tackled by statics.

And:

This game needs diversified endgame content that is accessible by groups of different sizes. We need content that really capitalizes on the game's FC and LS social structures. We need content with a gate that differs from "repeat this until you memorize it."

We need this because, as the data plainly shows, most players are not raiders. They will never be raiders. SE can't entice people to play this game long-term if the only real endgame content is raiding.

And:

Raiding is a niche interest that will only ever really appeal to a niche group of players, regardless of rewards. Sure, those rewards are important to raiders. But no matter how good you make those rewards, raiding will still be irrelevant to the scores of players who don't like raiding. SE needs to do a much better job of engaging those players with new forms of true endgame content.

I didn't leave much room for misinterpretation.

Yet somehow you got it wrong, because then you said this:

Here is the thing, you want content that capitalizes on communication devices like FC and LS but you want content that also requires no progression.

And that's completely against what I've been saying this entire time, as you can see by reading my quoted sections up above. Progression-oriented content that capitalizes on the game's social structures is EXACTLY what I want.

Then you totally agree with me:

You know what made dyanamis fun? It was a challenge, it was heavily progression based. You didn't just get to fight dynamis lord, you had to work up to fight him. This Game is void of any of that depth. HOw fun would dynamis had been if the monsters could never kill you, you always made it to the last boss on time, and you could repeat until you got loot that week?

See, we agree! Give XIV something like Dynamis that offers true endgame progression AND isn't completely dependent on a fixed eight-man song and dance and XIV will immediately be better off.

That's the kind of change this game needs to really improve player retention. There isn't enough potential in raiding to make that big of an impact, especially if SE remains hyper-focused on raiding.

But if SE diversifies endgame while not neglecting the existing raid community, then the game will be fine.

[zosia]

Except I'm not talking about that... that's a completely different conversation.

Zosia, your last reply to me was all over the map. For the most part, I think you agree with me... but you seem to think I view things such as Weeping City, Deep Dungeons (not even a level-cap activity) and Aquapolis (really?) as progression endgame, which is absurd. I very plainly said these things are NOT true endgame.

To quote myself again, for clarity:

redefining the end game to fit a narrative is what you are doing.

An endgame is the game that exists after you hit the level cap and beat the MSQ. This part of the gaming experience is usually exemplified by marginal power upgrades through increasingly better gear upgrades. PotD, Aquapolis, and pretty much everything else I mentioned give you currency to buy end game gear. That's the end game bud. Aside from Savage raid drops and 24-man drops, most people get their blues off of a vendor with some tome currency.

That's the problem I see. You see it as you guys need different ways to get that currency. More variation might make it more bearable for awhile longer, but it won't last. You will still be grinding some weird stylized end game content for tomes, tokens, or coins and you will buy your blues from a vendor. It will go stale fast, and people will unsub.

If you have ever played hunter in wow when they could equip polearms, you might remember the weapon often felt like a useless 'stat stick'. Every last piece of gear in this game feels like a hunter polearm weapon from wow, low impact rewards with little to no meaning and almost no impact on anyone's playing experience outside EX primals and raids.

Until the entire reward structure is reworked, for both raiders and non raiders, every new piece of content, challenging or not, will be less and less popular.

[Chalbee]

It's nice to have something rare, a hard earned reward from a path few will follow.

That I can understand; I'm not trying to say raiders should get nothing special. I think I was a little miffed at the opinions of certain other posters with regard to casual players' value. I appreciate the reality check.

To address the grist of the topic at hand, would the raiding community accept a fixed, rare achievement that was less universally desirable than a mount or a special crafting item? Someone earlier suggested a reader board of some kind for world firsts, or perhaps we could have a unique title reserved for the first 100 people to clear a raid which can't be earned after the nerf patch. Those are things which are visible to everyone and prove your accomplishment. As long as the reward is a "thing" I fear people will always complain about the difficulty of obtaining it, which causes more strife between casual players and raiders. I'm sure there's a way to make raiders feel valued and recognized without breeding too much resentment from the casual playerbase.

[Thayos]

redefining the end game to fit a narrative is what you are doing.

An endgame is the game that exists after you hit the level cap and beat the MSQ.

I agree, that is the literal definition of endgame. But that's not what I'm talking about, and as both of us have pointed out, that's not what this game needs. PROGRESSION endgame is a subset of endgame that's absolutely critical in an MMO (which I'm sure you already know, based on your posts).

Right now, the only real progression endgame in XIV is raiding, and that's a problem. Successful MMOs offer different paths of true endgame progression that allow players to form different kinds of communities, climb different ladders and set different kinds of goals.

In XIV, there is no such variety.

To be honest, the only thing you and I really disagree on is what will happen to XIV after 4.0 hits. And even then, I'm not sure we disagree. You seem to believe the game will fail because the dev team will fail to engage more players and boost sub retentions. And if that's what happens, then I agree with your anticipated outcome.

The only difference is I'm leaving the door open for SE to make the changes needed to add some endgame diversity and boost retention rates.

Don't mistake my belief in a simple solution for a blind belief that SE will pull it off. I'm hopeful that SE sees the writing on the wall, but I'll also believe it when I see it.

This part of the gaming experience is usually exemplified by marginal power upgrades through increasingly better gear upgrades. PotD, Aquapolis, and pretty much everything else I mentioned give you currency to buy end game gear. That's the end game bud. Aside from Savage raid drops and 24-man drops, most people get their blues off of a vendor with some tome currency.

BTW, there's a simple fix for this, too.

[Ceasaria]

They could add atleast a glow on the savage gear because we want to shine

[Ibi]

Why did players participate in Mythic dungeons in wow? Why did players participate in dynamis, sea, sky, etc? What are one of the primary end goal of these activities, especially repeat clears? Power progression.

Firstly, having multiple different paths through which to pursue that power progression is going to be a much better way to retain players that stacking it all behind a single niche activity.

Secondly, what power progression is offered by mounts, titles, glamour gear, etc., which you said are rewards that need to be added to raiding?

People wanted powerful cool looking gear that enhance their character. What you don't seem to understand is that you guys HAVE plenty of diversified content, it's just not very compelling to do.

Here's the list of challenging end game content:

• Extreme Primals (at most one of which is relevant at a time)
• Savage

Five encounters is not "plenty of diversified content".

There is plenty of casual content, but the rewards and the acquisition methods for the relic are TERRIBLE!

No argument there, but what does putting more rewards in raiding do to fix that?

If you guys wanted more challenging content, maybe there shouldn't have been so much defending of SE catering to the lowest common denominator.

I'm going to go out on a limb and hazard a guess that maybe at least some of the people who wanted more variety of challenging content aren't the exact same people that were defending SE catering to the lowest common denominator.

Now, please pull your head out of rear please and understand that until the reward structure is fixed from top to bottom, for both raiders and casuals, that content will simply remain underwhelming and people will not be compelled to retain their sub. You can't just fix the bottom end of the reward latter and forget the top, that does not make for a sound latter.

If what you're actually trying to advocate is a rework of the entire game's reward system, great, I'd be totally on board with that.

What I object to is the idea that the way to fix the game's reward system is just to stuff a ton of rewards into Savage raiding, because no matter how good they are the vast, vast majority of the player base still won't do it.