Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

snip

Ok, but what purpose would it serve besides "challenging" people? Is there an incentive to fight stronger mobs there? Do they got something that is worth the risk? Or are they just glorified beef gates that add more time to your routine because you have to waste more minutes being careful every single time you want to travel or get something?

[Jetstream_Fox]

Or, quite simply greater mob AI and patrol routes? Doesn't have to be analog to a specific game when doing what any number of them have already, even if that's something XIV has thus far ignored completely in design.

Really if they wanted to make the game world more in depth and challenging then they need to take a page out of Destiny. Ever since they introduced Oryx the Taken King they spawn Taken around the planets at random times. Granted the Taken are reskins, they also have some unique abilities that make them more of a challenge then the nontaken enemies.

Make enemy strongholds, similar to the Redbelly Hive in South Shroud, add enemies that are more powerful to the world at random times, make B rank hunts predators again while giving the A ranks the ability to hunt players and not just stand there, introduce fates that actually impact the section of the world you're in, or even make mobs get buffs during night time and use the Nightmare skins from PotD and let them lose with erratic spawns and AI combat paths.

We don't need to be sneaking in this game, that was implemented horribly on NIN, or any puzzles in the open world. The land of Eorzea should be a savage place, sneaking and solving puzzles is actually very opposite of what the player I quoted was looking for.

[Shurrikhan]

We don't need to be sneaking in this game, that was implemented horribly on NIN, or any puzzles in the open world. The land of Eorzea should be a savage place, sneaking and solving puzzles is actually very opposite of what the player I quoted was looking for.

A open world zelda esque sneaking puzzle could be interesting and give an enemy stronghold life. Set enemy spawns along a predetermined path, able to avoid detection simply through patience and timing. Being detected resetting your progress completely/partially probably via death. For parties just pushing through the objective could be to zerg certain enemies before they can raise the alarm and flood the area with reinforcements.

Well now I'm confused. Especially since all I said was that what that your analog...

So you basically want MGS 5.

...wasn't the end all be all of what was mentioned. (And to me seemed dismissive. I realize now that wasn't the case.)

I never said there that the game needed stealth. (Granted, I would like some.)

Really if they wanted to make the game world more in depth and challenging then they need to take a page out of Destiny. Ever since they introduced Oryx the Taken King they spawn Taken around the planets at random times. Granted the Taken are reskins, they also have some unique abilities that make them more of a challenge then the nontaken enemies.

Make enemy strongholds, similar to the Redbelly Hive in South Shroud, add enemies that are more powerful to the world at random times, make B rank hunts predators again while giving the A ranks the ability to hunt players and not just stand there, introduce fates that actually impact the section of the world you're in, or even make mobs get buffs during night time and use the Nightmare skins from PotD and let them lose with erratic spawns and AI combat paths.

While from what I've seen of Destiny (PC only player), the concepts look like a tremendous conceptual guide for a lot of MMO design... though its forums and E3 comments do point at that common state of "could have been so much more". That said, I'm not seeing any of what's made it look attractive to me in high level aggressive mobs spawning randomly throughout the world or around beastmen and bandit camps. That simply sounds like any of the invasion events. Which... was a cluster****. Fun sometimes, but decimating open world gameplay for anyone not in a group of ten or more and just generally killing leveling and camp usage for most players in any zone in which they were involved.

Overwhelming power or savagery isn't necessarily fun. It's a minimum gear and/or player count, or an outright lockout. At least until you properly attach scaling and mechanics to actually make it interesting. Which is why I'd be more excited if, say, SE said they're revamping stealth and its usage than if they simply said "we're dropping in a lot of really strong mobs who kill on sight".

[Jetstream_Fox]

snip

Destiny could have been great but they released the lead writer and scraped the story into what it is now, because you know, Activision. But what I mentioned about The Taken King, yes it's an invasion, he invades our solar system because well, kinda killed his son. BUT Bungie released that this DLC was built on revenge, so they made the general areas become more violent when the Taken come, it makes the world seem more alive and give us a sense that the things we do carry consequences. In FF14 there is nothing like this, when we were wanted in Uldah, why were there no Brass Blades looking for us? We could just pop in the city and do whatever. We entered a war between human and dragon, why weren't there dragon raiders looking for us? Now in 4.0 we look to be going to Ala Mhigo, which I'm understanding is under control of the Emperor, why wouldn't he send his best units to track us down and kill us? Adding the element of being hunted by a strong pack at random gives off a very high level of danger, you're not meant to kill this pack, but you must deal with it, which leads to matter of stealth.

Stealth is NOT the answer in regards to making things more challenging, I've played enough of Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid and believe me when I say, adding patterns to AI that we learn are not a good method in open world content. It simply doesn't work. It didn't work in MGS 5, all you had to do was get a tranquilizer sniper and you beat the game. If you didnt go stealth the game became frantic and fun, but the concepts of stealth and run and gun don't mix in a open world. Splinter Cell used environmental stealth in it's design, that also wouldn't work in a open areas that 14 has, simply because of the design of 14. 14 has a head on battle system, which SE has yet to comment on if they're going to change our battle system at all. If we didn't need the trinity we could get away with this, but we have a out dated battle system, heading a game that is asking for more modern elements.

So challenge must be built within the confines of what we already have, meaning making mobs more violent, increasing the number per area, allowing them to actively hunt us instead of stand still and look around, and actually have a mean streak are the only real things SE can do with making the world a more serious matter. Otherwise, the use of ideas that are not fully developed being implemented will further hurt the feel of the game, and we don't need a open world that is worse overall then any of the side content that flopped like TT, LoV, Diadem, or PotD.

[Shurrikhan]

In FF14 there is nothing like this, when we were wanted in Uldah, why were there no Brass Blades looking for us? We could just pop in the city and do whatever. We entered a war between human and dragon, why weren't there dragon raiders looking for us? Now in 4.0 we look to be going to Ala Mhigo, which I'm understanding is under control of the Emperor, why wouldn't he send his best units to track us down and kill us?

Hell, when I first went into the Beta, and then again going into ARR live on legacy characters, I went through the first fetch quests thinking... am I ever going to talk to any of these people ever again, apart from my guild master up to level 30 when my class becomes a wasted relic of a concept? Is there going to be a single thing worth knowing about the world map that a quest wouldn't have directed me towards anyways at the only time that area is useful? And I didn't, and there wasn't.

Speaking of open world instancing, or 'phasing', yeah, that would have been a great opportunity to throw in some danger on that escape by having phased interactions with the environment, even if that really did mean that we couldn't get back into Ulduh until finding some way to disguise ourselves. Instead, we stepped out of the cutscene, free to walk freely about the place rife with our (inexistant) pursuers. But instead we got 12 consecutive minutes of cutscenes. Granted, since that period of transition to Ishgard and the events and settings of Heavensward was short anyways—and any longer would more than try the patience of anyone just trying to get to Ishgard—I'm okay with that. But the sheer nothingness throughout the world, or how we have to stand about a destination every time just to trigger instanced events whose spawns just look awkward to anyone else, the complete lack of quests noting whether in a party (and why should they, when there's no reason or scaling for that party), or worse, force you out of them... *shiver*

You have guilds, yet you seem to be the only player in them. You have campaigns, yet they explicitly hinge on you and you alone, the solo (+3/+7/+23) player. I get that we want to feel like the main character, but that can be done while still making mention of the things going on through your various class guilds, GCs, and so on, connecting you with other players, and having some actual effects of your interactions out there... I'd best stop there, for now...

I'm pretty open to whatever concepts could increase interactions available with the open world to make it feel vivid and coherent. I just, seeing what we do have, have no faith in SE's taking a similar barebones concept such as an Invasion (already had two of those in 1.x) and making something interesting out of it. They seem too willing to take in skeletons of design and present them as a meaty dish. /rant

Stealth is NOT the answer in regards to making things more challenging, I've played enough of Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid and believe me when I say, adding patterns to AI that we learn are not a good method in open world content. It simply doesn't work. It didn't work in MGS 5, all you had to do was get a tranquilizer sniper and you beat the game. If you didn't go stealth the game became frantic and fun, but the concepts of stealth and run and gun don't mix in a open world. Splinter Cell used environmental stealth in it's design, that also wouldn't work in a open areas that 14 has, simply because of the design of 14. 14 has a head on battle system, which SE has yet to comment on if they're going to change our battle system at all. If we didn't need the trinity we could get away with this, but we have an outdated battle system heading a game that is asking for more modern elements.

I respectfully have to disagree here. While I've played Splinter Cell and other stealth centric games and would have to agree that the bursty frantic deviations away from stealth are often more fun than the stealth itself, I have had tremendous fun, more so than in stealth-centric games, with open world stealth. Ever tried to sneak an entire raid into an enemy player city, cutting through canyons, scouting with less conspicuous players, and potentially baiting enemy resistance away? That's technically open world stealth. As for the PvE side, there are things like diverse mob detection patterns that allow you to bait mobs away, potentially into enemy players, or have you seek cover as the thick clouds that had been blanketing your approach from the moonlight finish passing by and suddenly all those mobs you'd been cutting past can see you. It's got some pretty fun interactions to work with.

But again, I never suggested stealth as a primary solution wasn't a primary solution. In my first post I was just using the example of stealth in order to show how changes in travel speed can create different player paradigms, making adjustments to whatever system of risks and rewards based on travel or pathing seem all the more interesting and seem to better reward progression and discovery.

So challenge must be built within the confines of what we already have, meaning making mobs more violent, increasing the number per area, allowing them to actively hunt us instead of stand still and look around, and actually have a mean streak are the only real things SE can do with making the world a more serious matter. Otherwise, the use of ideas that are not fully developed being implemented will further hurt the feel of the game, and we don't need a open world that is worse overall then any of the side content that flopped like TT, LoV, Diadem, or PotD.

I'd say if you build just about anything strictly within the confines of what we have, which is mechanically next to nothing, the effort is basically fruitless anyways. Of course, every example you've given thereafter are things that we don't currently have, unless you mean to simply increase mob detection range across the board. They have spawn areas, in which they where they spawn randomly or at specific nodes, each have a domain range around the spawn, and are scripted to wonder a portion of that range's radius, while detecting up to x yalms (reduced by superior player level), and chasing to the edge of the domain. That's all we've got. That said, more than half of all mobs do already attack on sight. The issue is simply the difference in player level, but without the player being synced to make a fight out of one-shot-able mobs chasing you, removing that detection immunity would only serve to annoy people crossing on land mounts via Heavy. And I doubt that simply expanding or lifting their domain ranges and giving them acquisition scripts with the goal of finding and killing players within the zone is going to seem more challenge than annoyance. Without anything specifically implemented to give the player something to work with or avoid, you just end up with, effectively, death by RNG, or extra and nonmanipulable work based on RNG. You either saw the beast well ahead of time and were locked out of using the area, saw it and killed it just to access the area, or got lucky and it didn't decide to continue in your direction as you landed and started doing whatever within 100 yalms of it.

[Welsper59]

Ok, but what purpose would it serve besides "challenging" people? Is there an incentive to fight stronger mobs there? Do they got something that is worth the risk? Or are they just glorified beef gates that add more time to your routine because you have to waste more minutes being careful every single time you want to travel or get something?

Unnecessary dangerous mobs being around isn't always a bad thing. Their presence serves a similar purpose to the mobs you just currently ignore and have not once fought. Not everything needs to be justified by having something of worth that mandates someone killing them. Their presence can simply be for the sake of world building, at minimum. This game doesn't exactly fit the bill though on creating a zone that has nothing but mobs designed to be fought with a party just to get to a basic location like a town, though.

Sections of a map can work, like how some ARR zones had a varying level of mobs based on location, but our zones are really small to cater to that appropriately. They could probably also create a zone for it... but we kinda already have such a (poorly introduced) function like it, and it's called Diadem. After noticing how horrible people were here about their avoiding mobs when trying to get those currents to fly in the zone, I'd say we kinda are in need of something to boost some self awareness of lack of skill. It's like watching someone on a bicycle try to go through a 50ft wide opening only to crash into the wall next to it. What better way than to just outright kill them for their mistakes in the game? It's good to learn a simple degree of motor skills and have a bit of self awareness. Then again, that could also be a sign that many players are just that inept at being aware of their surroundings. RL itself kinda hints at that with all the accidents that occur.

Keep in mind that the need to be careful to avoid agg was simply to avoid battle, assuming people are relating it to XI's aggro system. You could have always just fought your way through, assuming your party was of sufficient level. Sometimes, that worked out well, depending how far the destination was.

[WinterLuna]

Ok, but what purpose would it serve besides "challenging" people? Is there an incentive to fight stronger mobs there? Do they got something that is worth the risk? Or are they just glorified beef gates that add more time to your routine because you have to waste more minutes being careful every single time you want to travel or get something?

The thread was about challenge, not incentive, and the suggestion was based on that.

The suggestion was really vague, of course incentive could be added. The high level mobs could drop different versions of timeworn maps, decent amounts of gil or whatever else people would like.

Or, they could drop nothing, and serve to make the world more interesting and dangerous, instead of the entire open world being a safe zone unless you're not max level or AFK.

They don't have to be everywhere, either.

[Jynx]

Ok, but what purpose would it serve besides "challenging" people? Is there an incentive to fight stronger mobs there? Do they got something that is worth the risk? Or are they just glorified beef gates that add more time to your routine because you have to waste more minutes being careful every single time you want to travel or get something?

I wouldn't think to deny people the comforts of "Normal" travel as these areas would only need to be traversed once to get to your next town and then any further incursions would be for specific reasons (Daily quests, key items, gathering.) There are plenty of ways to ensure that getting through these areas is well worth the risk, hell there were certain weekly quests in XI that basically gave exp scrolls as a reward of traversing old deadly areas after you had finished the questline for them.



These quests were hidden of course in XI but XIV could have neon signs pointing them out.

The point is that the monsters aren't just "beefgates" as the traversal of the area should always be a important part of why you are there, otherwise you might as well call the fights in the game all beefgates blocking you from your progression... The time you spend in these areas should be rewarding for your character no doubt.

Hard to obtain crafting materials, gathering points, quest rewards or even NPC's that need to be saved if certain world events are failed.

Some people might get sour if I suggest it but imagine if there was a NPC who made it so you didn't have to pay to warp to the next city after you unlocked it (Let's say warping in this area is costly without this NPC) if certain world events are failed this NPC would vanish for a set amount of time or require players to traverse the world to pick him up (With a nice reward of course). This way players are generally invested in the zone and it's required to access all the comforts of the zone.

This could work with other things such as vendors.

Inconveniencing players doesn't always have to be a bad thing you know.