DPSing as a healer

[_slowpoke_]

What needs to change with the current healer meta are the attitudes.

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

DPS pushers, understand that this benefit is a luxury and until content is released that requires healer DPS to clear, healers should NOT be pressured or told to do it

For the umpteenth time, the fact that healer DPS is not strictly and numerically required to beat bosses has nothing to do with this. Healers should absolutely be told to DPS. If they cannot handle DPSing and healing, they should either move on to another role or accept that they are a mediocre healer. Don't try to make sub-par play acceptable, we have enough bad players as it stands.

And even more than that, they should not be made to feel like they are inadequate.

But. They. Are. They are playing on a level of a DPS autoattacking, or a tank spamming Flash. That is literally what a heal-only healer is doing. The absolute, bare, minimum required contribution. That is the very definition of inadequate.

Making people feel less than yourself is the very definition of bullying.

By the twelve, no, it's not. By your definition, criticism is bullying. Stop trying to paint people who want and require more than the minimum contribution from people as "bullies". You're basically name-calling because you have no arguments.

Pushers please try to understand that there can be legitimate reasons why a healer does not enter Cleric and may not be due to laziness or selfishness.

There aren't, and you haven't even tried to provide any. Also, pretty much all other reasons people have provided here or elsewhere reduce to either or both of laziness and selfishness, including the unwillingness to improve.

It is completely counter-productive.

On the contrary, what you are doing is counter-productive. You are advocating sub-par playstyle as acceptable, or even "great". That's not gonna help anyone improve, because it allows people to sit comfortably on their minimum contribution thinking they are good players.

We need to call bad what is bad, and start with ourselves - that's how I begun as well once I realized healing in this game is different from all other similar games I've played so far. The first step to improvement is realizing you have to learn (and to keep this mindset, because there's always room to improve), and you're not gonna achieve this by telling people that they are being great and good healers when they are not.

You put yourself in contention to not just be a great healer, but an elite one.

The elite healers are those who maximize DPS in the hardest fights the game provides, not those who DPS at all, your definitions make no sense. Again, you cannot be a good or even "great" healer without utilizing Cleric and your offensive spells. Hell, you can't even properly learn to heal without DPSing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this and/or other threads.

I think if you simply say, "I'm not too comfortable stance dancing, but I will try." You'll get patience and understanding from most, even if you do mess up. Messing up, is part of the learning process. That is a true fact.

This is about the only thing in this entire post I will agree with. I will absolutely have patience and understanding for someone who actually tries, because that means they are willing to improve, instead of expecting the rest of the party to carry them. Willingness to improve is step 0 to becoming a good player. And yes, failure is crucial to learning, because continued success makes people complacent.

I might be idealistic by saying that I think we can all get along, but I will continue to hope that the day comes that we do.

As long as you keep up this nonsensical, argument-free defense of bad play in the name of not criticizing people for said play, no, we're not gonna get along. Please stop, you're not helping.

[Gemina]

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

Excuse me? I need you to point out where I say asking people to improve is bullying? Quote it. Bold it. I implicitly stated that if you are making other people feel less than yourself, THAT is bullying. But you're not asking other players to improve, are you? You're telling them to. You're requiring it. You're demanding it, and you come off as belligerent doing so. This is not ok. If you want to talk about being considerate of others, then I think you need to reflect on telling people what to do is poor etiquette and bad manners. This is something MOST people are taught as children.

For the umpteenth time, the fact that healer DPS is not strictly and numerically required to beat bosses has nothing to do with this. Healers should absolutely be told to DPS. If they cannot handle DPSing and healing, they should either move on to another role or accept that they are a mediocre healer. Don't try to make sub-par play acceptable, we have enough bad players as it stands.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this. Do you have such pomp that you feel what you say is law? The golden standard? Your issue is you feel healers than only heal are performing sub-par. It's really isn't complicated. The healing DPS contribution required to clear an instance is currently set at 0%. Anything greater than this number means the healer is doing more than what is required of them to complete an instance. If the DPS number is set at, let's say 70% and they indeed to put forward that 70%, they too are doing what is required of them. But let's say they are not, and their contribution is hovering 60%. This means the tank and/or the healer have to make up the loss. This means they are doing more than what is required. It means they are "carrying" the DPS members of their group assuming the DPS are deliberately entering instances with sub-par performances.

I get it, you feel players who only put forth exactly what is needed are mediocre at best, and that's fine. You want players to strive to be better than they were yesterday, and this too is perfectly ok. But to feel like you're carrying a healer through an instance because they don't DPS? That is utterly ridiculous.

But. They. Are. They are playing on a level of a DPS autoattacking, or a tank spamming Flash. That is literally what a heal-only healer is doing. The absolute, bare, minimum required contribution. That is the very definition of inadequate.

Read the last clause again. Then look up the definition of "adequate". Then also tell me how many times you failed to clear something because the healer didn't DPS. You really need to understand that YOUR requirements are not the same as the game's requirements to complete something. If you want to be Yoda, and coach up healers to perform to your standards, you are more than free to do so.

By the twelve, no, it's not. By your definition, criticism is bullying. Stop trying to paint people who want and require more than the minimum contribution from people as "bullies". You're basically name-calling because you have no arguments.

Again, I am pretty sure I made it clear what bullying is. Nothing wrong with criticism if it is constructive. Your criticism is anything but that. As for the arguments, in my last response to you, I tried to be nice and I tried to be civil. Yet, you continue to press on by quoting my statements. Why is this? Especially with a post that was clearly an attempt to bring some harmony among all of us no matter your view? It sure in hell isn't because I have no argument, or because they are weak. You defend not being a bully so strongly, even though I never called you one. Speaks tons dude.

There aren't, and you haven't even tried to provide any. Also, pretty much all other reasons people have provided here or elsewhere reduce to either or both of laziness and selfishness, including the unwillingness to improve.

I shouldn't have to provide any. Nor should any healer who is uncomfortable. Do you know this feeling? Being uncomfortable? It is NOT something you brush aside. What you likely consider the weakest of the these arguments is quite possibly the biggest reason why you shouldn't press the issue, and why I defend these players as much as I do. If someone says they are uncomfortable, it STOPS right there. THAT is what is called common courtesy. If that is not ok with you, boot the healer, get a new one and move on.

On the contrary, what you are doing is counter-productive. You are advocating sub-par playstyle as acceptable, or even "great". That's not gonna help anyone improve, because it allows people to sit comfortably on their minimum contribution thinking they are good players.

I never said the minimum contribution makes a healer great. Is this what you do to make a point? Reword things to shape them in your favor? And you tell me I don't have an argument? Have I not clearly stated I encourage healer DPS? The whole reason why I am here is because I am telling you that telling other players what to do is NOT ok.

The elite healers are those who maximize DPS in the hardest fights the game provides, not those who DPS at all, your definitions make no sense. Again, you cannot be a good or even "great" healer without utilizing Cleric and your offensive spells. Hell, you can't even properly learn to heal without DPSing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this and/or other threads.

Just love how you left out where I said good and great healers also DPS. Your arguments are literally getting weaker the more you make.

This is about the only thing in this entire post I will agree with. I will absolutely have patience and understanding for someone who actually tries, because that means they are willing to improve, instead of expecting the rest of the party to carry them. Willingness to improve is step 0 to becoming a good player. And yes, failure is crucial to learning, because continued success makes people complacent.

Bravo! You are capable of more than indifference. Apply that to your "criticism" and you just might garner success with improving the game play of others.

As long as you keep up this nonsensical, argument-free defense of bad play in the name of not criticizing people for said play, no, we're not gonna get along. Please stop, you're not helping.

I don't remember defending bad play. I only remember telling you that your definition of bad play is a crock of shit. G'day to you sir.

[Zadocfish]

Gemina,

I don't remember defending bad play.

You have to remember, in low-level instances, your party will only seldom need healing if your tank has any skill at all. This means you are defending players doing absolutely nothing, or worse, drawing aggro for no reason, while the rest of the group does stuff. That's bad play.

How's this for a compromise: Instead of just doing nothing if you don't want to DPS, just tell the tank at the beginning of the instance that you don't want to DPS, and that they should pull bigger to give you something to do. That way, you can spend more time healing and not have to worry about doing something that you don't want to do. If the tank agrees, anyways.

[Gemina]

Gemina,

You have to remember, in low-level instances, your party will only seldom need healing if your tank has any skill at all. This means you are defending players doing absolutely nothing, or worse, drawing aggro for no reason, while the rest of the group does stuff. That's bad play.

How's this for a compromise: Instead of just doing nothing if you don't want to DPS, just tell the tank at the beginning of the instance that you don't want to DPS, and that they should pull bigger to give you something to do. That way, you can spend more time healing and not have to worry about doing something that you don't want to do. If the tank agrees, anyways.

I'm sorry if I give the impression that I am heals-only healer. I can understand why, but this is not so. However, I am and always will be a heals-first healer. I most certainly DPS in group play when it is safe to do so. Sometimes it takes me a little bit to grow in confidence with my group, especially a DF group but I do get there. In my static though, I am in Cleric a great portion of the time. I've had a lot of difficulty getting to point where I am confident enough to handle both duties, and they have been with me since the very beginning, and have been very supportive and have done well to help me feel like it is not the end of the world if someone KO's or the group wipes since no matter what, I always shoulder all the blame. One of my faults as a healer that I am still working on.

I understand how helpful healer DPS is, and how much it is appreciated so I indeed strongly encourage it. I believe every healer should strive to be great, and this does involve proficiency in stance dancing. There is no getting around that. My abrasion is purely towards those who abuse the current healer meta to belittle other players.

Thank you for your kind comments, and mere mention of compromise puts a smile on my face. If pushers can loosen up just a little bit, and those who don't use Cleric can try a little harder, I believe it would go a long ways towards finding said compromise.

[Gemina]

Gemina,

You have to remember, in low-level instances, your party will only seldom need healing if your tank has any skill at all. This means you are defending players doing absolutely nothing, or worse, drawing aggro for no reason, while the rest of the group does stuff. That's bad play.

Crud! I wanted to comment to this too, and entirely left it out. I did not mean to and apologize. I did want to point out that I am aware that there are players who KNOW that they are capable of more than just tossing heals, and abuse that they do not have to contribute to DPS to get a clear. I acknowledge that this is absolutely inexcusable and even deserves to strictly go against the ToA. But how to tell these players from the ones with true anxiety issues? I think this is a big reason why the debates are so strong, and it is so difficult to compromise.

I also think some of the issue stems from what I pointed out earlier: The whole 0% contribution needed to make a clear. While this remains a fact, what this also means is that healers have it the easiest when it comes to contributing 100% of what is needed to make a clear. This leaves A LOT of room to do more than what is required. Trust me, it does not have to be beaten in my head. I know I am capable of more than just heals, but due to my experiences with anxiety, and struggles to feel like I am even worthy of queuing up for a duty, I also greatly understand if a healer is just not comfortable adding offensive magicks to their repertoire. I seriously choked up with the whole Sylphie CNJ quest line because of how much I related to it.

I wish I had a magic lenses that could let us all see the intentions of our healers, but unfortunately I don't. The good and bad wear the same clothing, and I guess my attitude leans more towards not caring so much a player deliberately wants to make things harder, it just makes me better at my own job.

[_slowpoke_]

~angry, argument free ranting~

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

[Seoulstar]

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

The person made valid arguments and you just shrugged it off as "ranting"...

[_slowpoke_]

The person made valid arguments and you just shrugged it off as "ranting"...

Which would be? Nothing in that post was something that hasn't already been disproven multiple times before, by me and others. That's why I'm still waiting for arguments. I haven't seen any that haven't been ripped apart already.

[CookieMonsta]

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

Dude, tell that to the people that cleared Gordias lol. /sarcasm Healer DPS not required /endsarcasm. Your statement did not become true until people literally came back with BiS gear or 220+ ilevel. Healer DPS is absolutely required, just not a massive amount. The devs were not that stupid.

[technole]

Dude, tell that to the people that cleared Gordias lol. Healer DPS not required. Your statement did not become true until people literally came back with BiS gear or 220+ ilevel. Healer DPS is absolutely required, just not a massive amount. The devs were not that stupid.

Healer DPS was required to complete Gordias Savage before the full i210 level. How about I just ask did you even clear A3S-A4S pre-nerf as a healer?