Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

[Duelle]

I was actually responding to all this until I realized you seem to absolutely hate FFXI, period. You focused solely on the bad of XI, without any merit of what made the game fun.

I've yet to find what people thought of as fun in FFXI. The combat was generally a mess (between TP dynamics to the bastardization of several of the in-game systems by the players). Class balance was a mess (god-tier jobs, junk jobs, exacerbated by overt focus on niche design). World presentation was a mess (the world being barren of civilization outside of the three main cities, though this I chalk up to game engine limitations and the PS2). Nevermind the plethora of unintended things done in-game that diminished my enjoyment (I can attest to this as someone who hates gear-swaps, staff-wielding PLDs and refresh botting).

Then at the end try to make XIV sound like some entirely new thing with its design. XIV is just as much of a grind-fest as XI, if not more in some cases.

The difference is that XIV at least lets you see some sort of progression. Which is nothing like, say, camping a named monster for a drop you "needed" to get into exp parties or doing Dynamis for the billionth time for your Duelist's Chapeau.

I'm sorry you punished yourself for 11 years in FFXI, but that was a personal option; and it does not make FFXI a horrible game by any standard. Otherwise it would have long shutdown, no maintenance mode (with constant updates), or no hint at yet even another expansion as per stated from a recent interview (however slight it may be), -or- the fact they are working on a FFXI mobile version that currently has plans up to CoP.

Here you're ignoring the fact that people who spend a lot of time on something are very reluctant to entirely drop it, regardless of how shitty the experience is. Aside from that some will stay because they have friends in-game.

Now am I saying FFXI was the best game for everyone on earth? Nope, but its concepts are certainly not the disaster you're blowing it up to be. Bad choices by devs sure (not making NIN Utsu like Rogue's Shade shift years ago etc), but still solid core ideas.

I'll call this into question. To name some examples, we've had people asking for extra stats on gear, often citing FFXI's stats and not realizing the balance issues those would cause progression-wise and gear design-wise (before even getting into how such stats would affect actual gameplay). We've had people asking for Dynamis and Nyzul Isle clones, gotten them and had one (Diadem) shit on for not being a source of raid gear and the other (PotD) labeled as repetitive (despite following almost the exact same structure as Nyzul Isle sans the floors with bullshit lamp placements).

What else is there? Pankration? A horribly-designed pet battle system that with some major tweaks could have been decent but was abandoned.

Moblin Maze Mongers? A decent system that was abandoned too early and then was implemented a second time (see: Meeble Burrows) because reasons.

Campaign? We already have that via FATEs, and the only difference between the two is that FATE mobs don't one-shot you the way Campaign mobs could.

Besieged? An unsustainable model, since that (along with the original implementation of colonization) assumes a continuously high in-game population.

Assault? We have this already in the form of dungeons, just without the classisms.

This all said, I'm willing to discuss things we could actually learn and improve from XI that don't mess with progression, but such examples are few and far in between.

PS: Before anyone mentions Delve and the several hundred other events with a single word for a name, those are all pretty much the same thing, just with different names and currencies. Collect gimmick (either items or currency) => pop and kill mob => get loot or get nothing depending on RNG => repeat.

[Sandpark]

I've yet to find what people thought of as fun in FFXI. The combat was generally a mess (between TP dynamics to the bastardization of several of the in-game systems by the players). Class balance was a mess (god-tier jobs, junk jobs, exacerbated by overt focus on niche design). World presentation was a mess (the world being barren of civilization outside of the three main cities, though this I chalk up to game engine limitations and the PS2). Nevermind the plethora of unintended things done in-game that diminished my enjoyment (I can attest to this as someone who hates gear-swaps, staff-wielding PLDs and refresh botting).

Go to youtube and watch most player reviews. The combat is the last thing people sing cheers about in XIV. Where as most player who did play XI usually recite how much they enjoyed the combat system. Class balance was not as tuned as it is here, but you also have more ways to play each job than you do here. The world being barren I would also chalk up to ps2 limitations but it wasn't that barren. You could go into areas connected to others and stumble upon a tribe or something else of interest.

The difference is that XIV at least lets you see some sort of progression. Which is nothing like, say, camping a named monster for a drop you "needed" to get into exp parties or doing Dynamis for the billionth time for your Duelist's Chapeau.

If I had the money I would buy a new car every 3 months and replace it every 3 months. However if money came that easy to me I probably wouldn't appreciate that new car for long.Same thing here.

Here you're ignoring the fact that people who spend a lot of time on something are very reluctant to entirely drop it, regardless of how shitty the experience is. Aside from that some will stay because they have friends in-game.

I drop something quicker than Doc Holliday can pull the trigger in Tombstone when it isn't something I enjoy. I can't speak for others.

I'll call this into question. To name some examples, we've had people asking for extra stats on gear, often citing FFXI's stats and not realizing the balance issues those would cause progression-wise and gear design-wise (before even getting into how such stats would affect actual gameplay). We've had people asking for Dynamis and Nyzul Isle clones, gotten them and had one (Diadem) shit on for not being a source of raid gear and the other (PotD) labeled as repetitive (despite following almost the exact same structure as Nyzul Isle sans the floors with bullshit lamp placements).

What else is there? Pankration? A horribly-designed pet battle system that with some major tweaks could have been decent but was abandoned.

Moblin Maze Mongers? A decent system that was abandoned too early and then was implemented a second time (see: Meeble Burrows) because reasons.

Campaign? We already have that via FATEs, and the only difference between the two is that FATE mobs don't one-shot you the way Campaign mobs could.

Besieged? An unsustainable model, since that (along with the original implementation of colonization) assumes a continuously high in-game population.

Assault? We have this already in the form of dungeons, just without the classisms.

This all said, I'm willing to discuss things we could actually learn and improve from XI that don't mess with progression, but such examples are few and far in between.

PS: Before anyone mentions Delve and the several hundred other events with a single word for a name, those are all pretty much the same thing, just with different names and currencies. Collect gimmick (either items or currency) => pop and kill mob => get loot or get nothing depending on RNG => repeat.

And Vermillion is so much better than Pankration? How many people play that?

The difference between campaign and fates is you played a role in an alliance vs beast war. Not just fought beast because they happened to be at a blue icon thing on the map with no story tied to their circumstance.

At least Besieged was an fugging actual public system for more than 20 players that you could see other players participating in from the server having varying level ranges from low level to the BiS people. And it was crazy fun, and had a branching quest line depending on who won or lost. You make it seem insignificant, but after effects do add immersion and encouraging someone to care about what happens to the world.

Assault and Dungeons are nothing alike except that they take place in an instance. There were dynamics there that are not present here like awareness, enemy tendencies and AI that make or break runs.

Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean everyone does. So if you didn't like it that's fine. I like most I see in this game, but the combat and closed-ness of content makes me feel like The Man in the Bubble sometimes.

[Skivvy]

PS: Before anyone mentions Delve and the several hundred other events with a single word for a name, those are all pretty much the same thing, just with different names and currencies. Collect gimmick (either items or currency) => pop and kill mob => get loot or get nothing depending on RNG => repeat.

I'm sorry to not be able to address the rest of your post at this moment, but your PS caught my eye.

Regardless of the game you play, MMO endgame at the very core is essentially the same. Run content repeatedly, obtain upgrades.

The issue with XIV's endgame is that it is incredibly limited and gets dull fast. Major patches generally brings us 2 dungeons, one 24-man raid, and one 8-man which are then put on farm-mode for your most current ilvl needs. While it is nice they even give us new content, it comes at the price of making almost everything else obsolete and forgotten. XIV boasts quite the selection of dungeons and raids, but there is very little reason to go back to them as a level 50 player outside of your daily roulettes.

XI is no different in that you are continually running content for upgrades, but your event options were far greater. For end-game gearing, you had salvage/assaults, Nyzul, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, Abyssea NMs, Limbus, Dynamis (and probably some others I am forgetting) all at your disposal in your quest to obtain relevant end-game gear. These all come with their own very distinct objectives and requirements which set them apart from each other. They now also have also have Escha, Delve, Skirmish, Ambuscade, etc.

To break those events down a little further, assaults consisted of about 40 different "dungeons" you could choose from, Limbus had 15+ different sections to choose, Dynamis consisted of 10 different zones to run. Sea/Sky had numerous different main focuses (NMs) as well depending on your taste for the day.

So yes, while all endgame gaming is essentially grinding content for marginal upgrades, it doesn't all have to be a complete snore. Spamming the same 2-3 dungeons and 1-2 raids gets old fast.

I am not asking for XI's exact content to be put into XIV. I am asking to have XI's endgame variety put into XIV.

[Duelle]

Regardless of the game you play, MMO endgame at the very core is essentially the same. Run content repeatedly, obtain upgrades.

I wouldn't claim otherwise. Repetition is pretty much a given in endgame.

The issue with XIV's endgame is that it is incredibly limited and gets dull fast. Major patches generally brings us 2 dungeons, one 24-man raid, and one 8-man which are then put on farm-mode for your most current ilvl needs. While it is nice they even give us new content, it comes at the price of making almost everything else obsolete and forgotten. XIV boasts quite the selection of dungeons and raids, but there is very little reason to go back to them as a level 50 player outside of your daily roulettes.

I'll disagree.

The real problem with FFXIV's endgame structure is that there's not enough of it. For example, the first tier of Alexander should have been a large raid instance with 7 or 12 bosses that would take a raiding guild 2 or 3 raid nights to clear instead of four corridors with one boss a piece. EX Primals should have bigger loot pools instead of just weapons and contribute to endgame progression in some way (currently they're this weird side thing). And there really should be more than just the two current extremes for content (story-mode that's too easy for most groups, or savage that is a ridiculous jump in difficulty for same).

I drop something quicker than Doc Holliday can pull the trigger in Tombstone when it isn't something I enjoy. I can't speak for others.

I've been on both sides of that one. Hell, I stayed with FFXI for longer than I should have because of the people I knew there. It's easily proven that the more time spent on something, the more reluctant one is to leave.

And Vermillion is so much better than Pankration? How many people play that?

I never said that, and it certainly isn't the case. Pankration's issue was that it was reliant on RNG (soul plates and relevant abilities being random), it was limited to one place in the whole world (this is a flaw it shares with Verminion), and was abandoned instead of being adjusted.

On that note, Verminion was implemented as something no one asked for: a RTS minigame shackled to the Gold Saucer instead of the Pokemon-inspired system some people wanted.

The difference between campaign and fates is you played a role in an alliance vs beast war. Not just fought beast because they happened to be at a blue icon thing on the map with no story tied to their circumstance.

There are stories tied to FATEs, but unlike Campaign's singular objective, a lot of it is reliant on zone context (which helps in giving the world depth because it means stuff is happening even when you're not gracing everyone's lives with your presence). Giant slugs that want to eat the great tree, an Alla Mighan brigade that has turned to crime, assaulting a fort held by the dravanians, and so on. FATEs in concept are actually pretty good because it gives you an idea of what happens out in the zones without needing a questline to do so; the issue has been that the devs use them to try to stagger player progression by tying content to them (atmas, animus books, etc).

At least Besieged was an fugging actual public system for more than 20 players that you could see other players participating in from the server having varying level ranges from low level to the BiS people.

Besieged also succeeded in making it evident that MMO engines have limits that make such systems a pain. Besieged itself suffered from things like ridiculous lag, really pushed the number of objects and character models the game could display, often led to random disconnects and crashes. Basically what we saw here with Odin, but worse.

It was nice because it had few restrictions and was essentially free exp when everything went according to plan (specially for jobs that had a hard time getting parties), but there were issues.