We love Yoshi

[WinterLuna]

If you think that other threads original comment to which the thread was created is respectful towards Yoshi, you are very wrong.

I was speaking about negative threads in general. Not once have I said I supported the other thread, you don't need to keep referring to it in that manner.

And the same goes for you about disliking certain threads. If you can't accept some negativity (minus troll threads) on an MMO forum, then that's also your own problem.

[Snugglebutt]

I was speaking about negative threads in general. Not once have I said I supported the other thread, you don't need to keep referring to it in that manner.

And the same goes for you about disliking certain threads. If you can't accept some negativity (minus troll threads) on an MMO forum, then that's also your own problem.

I can accept the existence of negative threads, just like I can accept the existence of this positive one even if I did not agree with the OP's position and if just existed as a counter balance....unlike some people against this one in here. I am more than willing to critique and take the people who created the negative ones to task on some of the things they have said to which I disagree with just like if I disagreed with the sentiment of this one I would have no problem making it known. In this case however I do not disagree with the OP's initial statement.

The community (including those creating the negative threads) are not immune to criticism as far as I am concerned but I will question any criticism I do not agree with regardless of who says it. There are people who's past comments I have criticized and taken to task about something they said then later I agreed with them about something else and helped argue their case when in agreement despite it being a compliant towards SE's working practices like for example the EU promotion. I am not against threads existing which are have negative feedback but I am against those trying to silence the positive ones like this and I will speak up when I do not agree with something said in either.

What I do find amusing however is how some of those behind such negative threads are happy to throw blame and criticism at SE yet are incapable of taking any themselves about their own position just like when I pointed out the one thing I took issue with about yours regarding your 'expectations' and you threw a hissy fit over and acted like some sort of victim just because I took you to task on that one specific aspect of your argument. Since then you seem to jump to the defense of negative threads every time someone has something negative to say about them or at least that's the impression I am getting.

[Hyrist]

So asides from your feeling all your doing is stating your feelings.

You acuse people of blowing things out of proportion and do so yourself and then defend yourself for doing it. I guess I am free to disagree with you on that.

I'm not saying I'm for the ultra negative feedback I find it counterproductive to be honest but people are free to express their opinions and as someone who doesn't like such content I don't post in the threads because I would be doing the exact oposite of what I want. The goal is to see these kinds of threads get little feedback due to their lack of any real discussion but they often tend to linger because of people who get riled up at the mere thought of someone posting negative feedback on the game and then perpetuate the very thing they want to get rid of.

I don't think it's our place to play forum police the developers are big boys and can sift through the data as they see fit. They have repeatedly stated that even negative feedback is welcome on the forums as long as people are civil. Both of those points are for them to enforce and not us as posters.

but hey you are free to post as you see fit whether I feel it's counterproductive or not.

I'll leave your opinion of my viewpoints stand rather than make this a contest of who's more valid in their speculation of things. Your perspective differs from mine. That is not a matter of your or I blowing things out of porportion. I've stated my opinion, on the solid metrics you yourself provided. You yourself at this point may be guilty of your own accusations by trying to depict my viewpoint as unnecessarily radical.

While you say the developers are 'big boys' and should be able to sift through the feedback, it is often not the developers that have to deal with the negativity, but the community team and moderators: middle men that, even if you disagree with the game, don't deserve to have to sift through the vitriol to find good feedback. And often it is overwhelming enough that a lot of violations can go overlooked.

To which I pose the question: If a thug robs and assaults a person and nobody calls the cops, is it still a crime?

The answer is, objectively, yes. In fact often it is the law in most areas to report such actions as is your civic duty.

Similarly while we are not 'the forum police', it should be expected of us to discourage vitriol and report that which we feel violates to ToS. We are as much if not more responsible for the tone of this community than the moderators - even if it is my opinion that moderators are not given as much autonomy as they should. They, of course, cannot speak for themselves in most cases, but if you were to have the luxury to talk to them privately you may find out that they would like to be more active in keeping forums clean of the rampant negativity that you and I both object to. (Through different means.) This is speaking from firsthand experience on staff from other MMOs, not of any of SE's employers or affiliates.

To which I reiterate, criticism of Company policy, Game development and policy, and the Game Community itself should all be fair grounds. And commentating on whether or not you feel it's constructive - is arguably less useful than feedback on these three - but, as you say, you are entitled to it.

[Shurrikhan]

@Snugglebutt (tangential stuff)

What I do find amusing however is how some of those behind such negative threads are happy to throw blame and criticism at SE yet are incapable of taking any themselves about their own position just like when I pointed out the one thing I took issue with about yours regarding your 'expectations' and you threw a hissy fit over and acted like some sort of victim just because I took you to task on that one aspect of your argument. Since then you seem to jump to the defense of negative threads every time someone has something negative to say about them or at least that's the impression I am getting.

Forgive me for butting in, but, as I'm not a fan of slander where groundless...

You posted:

It is the first 50 floors out of a planned 200, it will probably get harder with more mechanics and depth as more floors get added. What is at fault is 100% on you and your expectations which were wrong. SE explained in great detail what this content would be like and yet you still went in expecting it to be something else. The next set of floors they release will be the real indicator of what direction they are going with this overall.

as a reply to:

Content for new or returning players does not have to be almost mindless, though. This is supposed to be new for everyone, including end game players. They didn't have to make it difficult, there's just nothing remotely exciting about it.

I honestly confused myself for a moment, as Winter's post that you were replying to seems as capable of being a reply to what you wrote.

First, thread-wide no one had disagreed that it will likely get better with coming floors to some degree. The question was the direction of those additions, whether they will be enough, and whether there should also be revision to the system as a whole, and therefore to the first 50 floor as well. So I guess that leaves the second argument, that Winter's expectations ran contrary to information.

Here is our basis for expectations: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001518.html

Admittedly, that may be nothing grandiose or especially exciting based solely on what's written there. But should that mean that we MUST not expect to be excited by the content, and that it is entirely our fault if we're disappointed by it due to those expectations? It's new content, and the idea of new content, one would normally hope, is to be exciting and enjoyable. Or alternatively, if we are informed of a coming disappointment we lose all right to complain? (Does this mean we should have complained before having even tried the content, or as long as there are content previews, that content should not receive feedback.

That's absurd. If I'm misreading this, please inform me what warrant was assumed that I'm missing, but I can't honestly find as single logically sound path for it at this time. It doesn't explain why the first 50 floors shouldn't be representative of the product they're used it (are they merely a prototype?). It doesn't explain any limitations that might cause the concerns that Winter (or many, many others on that thread) have mentioned — in other words, why should it take up to floor 51+ to be something new (by the criteria explicitly and implicitly given by other posters)? (E.g. ChocoFero was able to give an analogous explanation just fine, and without being snide.) And yet this is your "bringing someone to task"? It hardly even corresponds to the quote being replied to. The "a lot of people actually really like it" copious posts are much more sound and responsive than that.

You now attack another poster as having thrown "a hissy fit over it". WinterLuna makes 6 replies thereafter, only 2 of which are made in reply to critiques, primarily to MeiUshi. (Though there is evidence of one question of your behavior in other's posts quoting you, and one of hers, both now deleted...)

Wait.. what? People are allowed to dislike something just because they knew what it entailed. By your logic, everyone should like everything in the game and never complain because we already read about it in the patch notes. I have no idea why people are trying to use this as an argument against me being disappointed, it's absolutely ridiculous.

And then we have additional clarification and another reply to MeiUshi.

It needs to be something more than it currently is. In my opinion.

[MeiUshi*]saying you didnt like it because is not what you expected is not fine as you knew what to expect, so what is the real reason why you didnt like it ..

You cant answer ? or the question is too hard]

I've explained multiple times why I don't like it regardless of my expectations. I'm not going to repeat myself again if you can't be bothered to read the thread.

*Original post deleted.

That hardly seems like Winter's being "hissy"... At worst, it seems like tone reacting in kind. But I could be wrong. Admittedly, there's a fair bit I can't make out just because of how many of the quotes point at now deleted posts, 1 from each of you.

What I do find disconcerting is that you seem to be attacking other posters rather than their points at this point, and have made it explicitly clear that you're not willing to read the whole other's posts save the portion that catches your interest or validates your internal logic. I mean this wholly as friendly advice, but you might want to cool off... If what you're saying is true, and you really have caused people to now jump to the defense of certain threads (likely those you are most likely to condemn), perhaps you're needlessly creating enemies. Slander doesn't really help in that area.

I for one think most of your posts are solid, but at other times you don't even seem to be arguing with the matter you're quoting. How do you want us to discuss things with you, if you won't read what is written, or address the points given?

[CelestePinke]

I think it's worth a moment to pause and consider caution with a thread like this. Lots of companies try to put forth a person as the face of a company so that customers become emotionally attached to that person. Apple had its Jobs, Nintendo had its Iwata, and XIV has its YoshiP. As you make your threads talking about how much you "love" him, keep in mind that he's in charge of a product and service attached to said product, and unconditional love toward him free of criticism is doing you and the rest of us no favors as customers.

I have edited and replied. Please take the time to read them. Notice that I specifically stated I do not post here often. When I logged in to forums, I was here to look at a friend's post and I all saw were topics complaining about some aspect or another of the game contents. I wanted share something nice.

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

I will help resolve your confusion or perhaps you wish to keep with your false narrative instead?

My comment..."It is the first 50 floors out of a planned 200, it will probably get harder with more mechanics and depth as more floors get added." and "The next set of floors they release will be the real indicator of what direction they are going with this overall." is in relation to her comment "Content for new or returning players does not have to be almost mindless, though. This is supposed to be new for everyone, including end game players. They didn't have to make it difficult, there's just nothing remotely exciting about it.".

The other part of my comment about her expectations is related to her original post which used her expectations as a partial basis to criticize the content despite the fact SE already told her EXACTLY what to expect from PotD, the original post that she changed over and over again after I made my initial comment as and when she got criticized for some of the things she said in it (not just by me). I then re-iterated and clarified my point over a dozen or so more posts. I got in an argument with one other person who jumped on the bandwagon for a while but mostly I spent a lot of the time trying to get Winter to understand that her wrong expectations were her own fault given SE explained in great detail what to expect from the content.

I read everyone's full postings, I just do not quote everything they say especially in your case where most of it is just word play where try to apply a false narrative or making it as convoluted as possible in order to misdirect. Care to link all my posts which you are trying to use as evidence against me instead if just saying I did something without providing the evidence while only using one single post of mine in your quotes?

[Shurrikhan]

(Tangential)

I read everyone's full postings, I just do not quote everything they say especially in your case where most of it is just word play where try to apply a false narrative. Care to link all my posts which you are trying to use as evidence against me instead if just saying I did something without providing the evidence?

Chiefly,

You can make your reply as convoluted as you like but I have no intention of being distracted by such nonsense and following you down that rabbit hole. You can call it skimming, I call it cutting out the nonsense and getting back on point.

After ignoring over half the content, broken up point for point for easy digest. You write, "Well I guess the OP of that thread should leave and try not to let the door hit them on the way out then," right under a list of conditions that the OP met none of. You're applying a quote to the opposite conclusion that can be reasonably made. The rest is linked in the post you just snipped.

It's not word play. At worst, it's a failure to ignore details in favor of some unknown gestalt. I don't know your mind, only what you've written. The strongest I've entered any tinted language is when I addressed your calling another poster "hissy" as, yeah, pretty much, slanderous and unnecessary.

_________________________________________________________________________

Your criteria was and I quote...


It does meet most of your criteria. It hits 1a, 1b and even 2 if go by popularity instead of subscription. It does not hit 3 but neither does the OP's position in her thread where gives zero indication as to who would replace him.. I as the poster in the example representing the intent of a group majority numbering 47 likes vs the OP of that thread with a group minority numbering 28 likes showed that within the confines of the amount of people participating they prefer Yoshi stays and the OP goes if had to choose between those two outcomes (1a, 1b and 2). I find it ironic you complain about me snipping your previous post when even in your current one you failed to refer to or quote the second part of of mine.

The OP is not the sole determine of any any factions quality or intent.
The OP is only a marginal representative of any such faction, which the thread shows is split anyways.
The OP's like count is not a vote for the OP's staying and Yoshi's leaving. It merely denotes how many people found some element of the post worth liking over. It does not contest your post. At 47 likes, you're not representing a player-base. You're representing a notion...
____________________________________

snip

At risk of being hated by both parties now: I honestly just wanted to see where the fact ended and the color began. I'm just a bit too sensitive, I guess; I don't appreciate toxicity, despite that negative threads – if only by nature of their drawing in ideas for improvement (albeit slightly less so than threads titled towards that purpose) – don't seem toxic to me at all. I can see why Snuggle took the other as such though.

As for the other bit, it seemed uncalled for, and possibly exaggerated, so if only for my own butthurt sense of irony I thought I'd call him on his calling... nevermind. At any rate, I look forward to interesting posts from the both of you.

[Jandor]

We love Yoshi

He's alright, definitely seems like a decent sort of bloke.

[Snugglebutt]

After ignoring over half the content, broken up point for point for easy digest. You write, "Well I guess the OP of that thread should leave and try not to let the door hit them on the way out then," right under a list of conditions that the OP met none of. You're applying a quote to the opposite conclusion that can be reasonably made. The rest is linked in the post you just snipped.

Your criteria was and I quote...

If:
1a. I were the sole determiner of the group's quality or intent.
1b. And/or I were representative to the group's quality or intent.
2. You, the disatisfied, were representative of the maximally sized player-base from whom I could secure subscription and popularity.
3. There were another candidate who could better fill my role (i.e. that massive unsaid condition in that OP).

Then yes, perhaps I should step down.

It does meet most of your criteria. It hits 1a, 1b and even 2 if go by popularity instead of subscription. It does not hit 3 but neither does the OP's position in her thread where gives zero indication as to who would replace him.. I as the poster in the example representing the intent of a group majority numbering 47 likes vs the OP of that thread with a group minority numbering 28 likes showed that within the confines of the amount of people participating they prefer Yoshi stays and the OP goes if had to choose between those two outcomes (1a, 1b and 2). I find it ironic you complain about me snipping your previous post when even in your current one you failed to refer to or quote the second part of of mine.

[Alexander_Dragonfang]

Yoshida PPT presentation back at GDC: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020179/Behind-the-Realm

I like the guy, but he really needs to re-read that.