End Game and Raid Finder

[Blanchimont]

And what should it look like in your mind?

First off, Savage content should not just be a single battle. It should be like dungeons. There should be 4, 8, and 24 man variants where the battle is broken down into several parts and the bigger the group, the more difficult it is. Right now, Savage content feels like just a chain of instant death conditions more than anything.

Mistakes and large scale AoEs should add things like vulnerability stacks instead of just flat out killing people. Multiple mistakes would lead to eventually a one hit kill, but no one single phase of the boss should be able to instantly kill someone just by say failing a DPS check. Should they be punished for it? Yes. But should it instantly wipe a party? No. I think tis will emphasize skill over equipment and allow players who are sufficiently skilled to clear the content with much lower item levels as well. Add some randomization to what type of AoE attacks a boss will use during their attack combos so that it isn't always as predictable.

This way players are punished for mistakes, but it doesn't mean it's an instant wipe and starting over. It gives groups an opportunity to recover by avoiding additional mistakes. However, making more mistakes will lead to the eventual instant death.

However, I think raiding is forced to a degree because it is the only place where the end game content is available in MMOs nowadays. If you don't raid, it means most of the patches are pointless as they tend to only add new dungeons and little of anything else. Much of the high level gear is only available from raids and players are locked out of some of them from Duty Finder unless they can find a raid group on their own server.

[Blanchimont]

As someone who has never raided Savage in this game (so clearly I may be wrong), what's so horribly off-putting to me is how difficult it is to get into a group that is looking for practice. Yes, I know I can start my own raids. I'm just gonna say that I had this same exact dilemma in World of Warcraft, and my raids got me absolutely nowhere, because this type of content is designed for statics and not pugging. Without any clears, I was unable to progress beyond normal mode regardless.

But how can you get a reasonable amount of practice this way? Sure, you might luck out and put together a pug group that is willing to go at it for a few hours, but if one person bails, you have to find a replacement and hope that said replacement can get caught up quickly enough. Then, if you don't clear it, when you go to apply for static groups, they're going to see a gigantic lack of accomplishments and have to go off of your word to see if you're worth bringing. The reward is... extra gear and bragging rights, plus bonding, I guess? But with the exception of the gear, I could easily find this same thing elsewhere without all of the ridiculous hassle and time wasted just trying to get my foot in the door.

It's a ridiculously jejune process for what you're getting. It wouldn't be as bad if I could sit in a queue, get a group to pop, and get practice myself. I understand that the chances of me clearing this would be slim to none. However, it would streamline the grouping process while simultaneously enforce an objective ilvl goal to reach, and no individual player would control the fate of another player. Right now, I've just decided to pretend Savage doesn't even exist and is just going to end up as a waste of time and happiness.

(This is all from the perspective of an "outsider." By no means am I saying Savage raiding is bad or anything - it's just to give a possible angle as to why some players don't raid in this game.)

I can assure you, it is very difficult to find a group to practice. The minimum requirement is often a full set of the current Tomestone equipment, which often means that the player has to have been playing for at least 2 months after reaching the level cap (minimum of 3 1/2 months for a serious player in my opinion). The exception to this rule is just before a new expansion, when they do not have the weekly limits. The number of players who can meet this requirement is very low to begin with. It takes at minimum 7 weeks (assuming you get gear from both Tomestones of Lore and Weeping City right now) before you get a full set of ilvl 230 gear, which is the minimum requirement for most raid groups now. By that time, the next patch is already out. The only way to get into a raid group is to be at the cap at its introduction, then farm for two months. Only then can you actually have a chance to even try the Extreme/Savage content for one character class. It's impossible under current conditions to prepare all DPS/Tank/Healer class for end game raids due to the weekly limits.

Raid groups do not bond very well. They're only together for a common goal and they are very serious. Most raid groups fall apart because of infighting more than anything.

[thegreatonemal]

snip

While I agree with you for the most part that last bit is false for the most part. Most people want to raid because its fun/challenging etc. do you have a few try hard people who ruin a raid group every once in a while sure. Most treat as being fun.

[Blanchimont]

While I agree with you for the most part that last bit is false for the most part. Most people want to raid because its fun/challenging etc. do you have a few try hard people who ruin a raid group every once in a while sure. Most treat as being fun.

Most raid groups I ended up in eventually fall apart because of loot distribution systems in game. It just requires far too much commitment to get anything out of it because they tend to reward veteran members first as well.

[thegreatonemal]

Most raid groups I ended up in eventually fall apart because of loot distribution systems in game. It just requires far too much commitment to get anything out of it because they tend to reward veteran members first as well.

How? Its RNG dependent along with a token system. Yes it means you have to keep at it but like anything else it becomes routine.

[Ilan]

So what you want in general is a System where you don't get punished that hard for failing and where you get the Loot way easier/faster. And a 24 people savage? No thanks because you will never get 24 good players into a group without a giant organisation act except you make it that easy that everyone can run it in DF and that would end up with a difficulty like weeping city.

And that will just end with most people say: FF is shit its totaly boring because they have their stuff way to fast and because the raids get to easy since you can ignore a lot of mechanics because they won't kill you anymore.

[Archaell]

How? Its RNG dependent along with a token system. Yes it means you have to keep at it but like anything else it becomes routine.

It's just my opinion, but savage would be much more accessible were the chests removed - or kept for mounts and minions etc. - while awarding each member two tokens instead of one. The main benefit would be that a raid group could have more than 8 members, greatly increasing the number of hours one can raid due to all the RL schedules.

[Blanchimont]

So what you want in general is a System where you don't get punished that hard for failing and where you get the Loot way easier/faster. And a 24 people savage? No thanks because you will never get 24 good players into a group without a giant organisation act except you make it that easy that everyone can run it in DF and that would end up with a difficulty like weeping city.

And that will just end with most people say: FF is shit its totaly boring because they have their stuff way to fast and because the raids get to easy since you can ignore a lot of mechanics because they won't kill you anymore.

I want a system that isn't defined by one hit kills. The loot is by no means easier, but the challenge comes from something other than where one mistake leads to instant raid wipe and memorizing attack patterns. It doesn't make it easier because if you actually read my post, you would see that I suggested using something like vulnerability stacks. It will eventually lead to a 1 hit kill if you ignore mechanics, but it doesn't flat out instant wipe you for screwing up once.

FF is already boring and why the population only spikes when there's new content. They do poorly in maintaining players. I cap out on my lore tomes in about 4 days with just dailies and I spend the other 3 days playing other classes/jobs because there's nothing for me to do on my main because of loot lock outs.

How? Its RNG dependent along with a token system. Yes it means you have to keep at it but like anything else it becomes routine.

A token system is less random because you will be able to acquire the specific item you want after a number of successful runs if you give a token to everyone. That means after x number of successful runs, you will be able to acquire a specific item. It does become routine, but it becomes rewarding for all participants rather than for just one person.

[Ilan]

Your Ideas would make the raid way easier...

[HyperiusUltima]

Raid Finder in itself is lackluster in the fact that you are tackling a very hard fight that has several wipe mechanics in a DF-like environment. Being in a DF-like environment already causes a lot of problems, as people can argue or not be cooperative during a given fight. What's more, is that there are people who quit in 5 tries, similar to how people attempt Nidhogg EX and quit after 5 tries. It gets old very fast.

What I'd recommend to improve Raid Finder is not put people in the instance, but rather make Raid Finder just like Party Finder where you can find raid groups that you can join across the entire data center, along with adding a new tab labeled "Raids(Savage)" since the UI has room for more tabs.

Requirements would be:

- Have 8 Members in your active party.
- Must meet iLv requirements just as the other Extreme Trials and Raids.
- Must have Savage for that specific tier(i.e. First Coil, Second Coil, Final Coil) unlocked.

You could throw in the old ARR End Game Raids for those who have not purchased Heavensward as well. It would help raid groups who are trying to fill in holes get the people. As for chat, I would ask that cross-server functionality be added to Party chat to allow people to talk with one another if they are not in the same area.