Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[ToasterMan]

Before Dark Knight, it was kind of necessary for Warrior to get Defiance early, because everything the job learned required it. Paladin could get away with it because nothing required a specific stance.

But now they have Dark Knight, which gets its tank stance at 30, and so the unbalance is clear. Give Paladin a new 40 skill, and have them learn Shield Oath at the same time they learn Sword Oath, and call it a day.

I'm not sure how Paladin got away with not having their tank stance for dungeons like Hawke, Brayflox Cutters Cry, and Qarn since that's when the game starts to step it up a bit, at least for a new player. This isn't about the skills it's about the classes ability to keep hate on mobs. Even back in 2.0 New Paladins struggled to keep mobs on them. Meanwhile once WAR got defiance it was smooth sailing from then. Just use a few overpowers and you were set. There aren't any skills you can use that require wrath stacks in Hawke and Brayflox anyway. Of course I can't really speak for Paladins at level 30 because I never went that far with it since I was fed up with GLD when I got provoke. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and they do it just fine. If so then just disregard this.

EDIT: Now that I think about it. It's probably because of the shield

[winsock]

Anybody who says: I've had no issues tanking in low level dungeons: Stop being cool. You're lying your through your teeth or you don't actually play your Tank in any actual dungeons before your stance.

I created a new character in 3.2 and have since leveled all 3 tanks to level 60. I leveled primarily through dungeons, especially for the early levels (I'm partial to NT fates if grinding between 42-50 ish). I was level appropriate for these dungeons and I'll say I didnt experience issues. That's not to say I tanked everything perfectly for every run while never, ever losing threat. But on the few occasions where I did lose threat, it was an isolated occurrence that was a direct result of an error on my part. (zoning out)

It's honestly a problem, and anybody saying otherwise is clearly ignoring the fact that a ton of us are having issues.

I agree the new player experience for tanks could be improved and to be fair, SE is making progress towards improving it. The Smith is a nice step in the right direction both giving them nice gear and a bit of direction. While I agree the new tank experience should get more attention, I am torn as to whether or not lvl 15 tank stance is the way to go about doing it.

For one, you can introduce new problems. For example, fresh 50 offtanks usually wont leave tank stance now, let alone MTs. What happens if Tank stance starts becoming their crutch at level 15?

If tanks aren't updating their gear at the lower levels now, what is going to happen when they gain more threat + dmg reduction from tank stance? Are the current 'sastasha' complains going to be replaced with 'haukke manor' complains once tank stance cant make up for how outdated their gear has gotten? I'm mean... Ive seen lvl 50 tanks in gear from the upper 30s...

How does tank stance impact other classes? For example, how would the passive 20% dmg reduction of ShO impact the new healer experience?

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

[Ilan]

Pretty much agree. Anybody who says: I've had no issues tanking in low level dungeons: Stop being cool. You're lying your through your teeth or you don't actually play your Tank in any actual dungeons before your stance. They need to either scale down the dps that is done, or they need to give Tanks something to combat the dps that is going out. Marauders used to have ZERO issue before Defiance, and now they're struggling big time even with Maim up-time, OP spam with SS combo. Paladins are screwed until 40, and it is a struggle to even get that Oath.

It's honestly a problem, and anybody saying otherwise is clearly ignoring the fact that a ton of us are having issues. We could be in full 240 and when we get sync'd, we get screwed out of aggro. It's a problem and this needs to be fixed. But really tired of seeing: 'I've had no problems at low levels!' Okay, keep lying or being ignorant, I don't care which.

I'm leveling a PLD at the Moment, only in dungeons, and i don't have shield oath yet since he is not 40 yet. I don't have problems, it takes a bit more focus then leveling a WAR or a DRK but its still not impossible or very difficult to keep hate. The problem for the most people is not the missing tankstance its the lack of experience as tank in general and the lack of interest for their own class and the skills of that class. Not everyone is just acting cool or something because he/she has no problems...

But even if i don't have problems with this class it would be good to give the PLD his shield oath with lvl 30 just to make it a bit easier for new players who maybe need to learn tanking.

[Awful]

How does tank stance impact other classes? For example, how would the passive 20% dmg reduction of ShO impact the new healer experience?

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

Couldn't of said it better my friend. If shield oath was introduced at 15 then healers would never have to heal which is bad, I mean you do hit cure once or twice and you're good because the game hasn't introduced HoT's or instant heals (unless you're an AST). Shield oath at 15 wouldn't educate people they'd never leave tank stance and carry over their bad traits once they hit higher lvls/max lvl. Sync'd stats play a more pivotal role compared to not having tank stance.

[Mattelot]

I created a new character in 3.2 and have since leveled all 3 tanks to level 60. I leveled primarily through dungeons, especially for the early levels (I'm partial to NT fates if grinding between 42-50 ish). I was level appropriate for these dungeons and I'll say I didnt experience issues. That's not to say I tanked everything perfectly for every run while never, ever losing threat. But on the few occasions where I did lose threat, it was an isolated occurrence that was a direct result of an error on my part. (zoning out)

In all honesty, it will vary from player to player. I'm a very experienced MMO healer and was prior to playing FFXIV. When I took up healing in this game, I was a natural (in my eyes). Someone less experienced may have a different experience. I hate to judge things on personal experience but rather think objectively.

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

It's much easier to poka-yoke a situation than constantly trying to pass on education, especially when it's mostly tribal knowledge and half of the time, incorrect.

Couldn't of said it better my friend. If shield oath was introduced at 15 then healers would never have to heal which is bad, I mean you do hit cure once or twice and you're good because the game hasn't introduced HoT's or instant heals (unless you're an AST). Shield oath at 15 wouldn't educate people they'd never leave tank stance and carry over their bad traits once they hit higher lvls/max lvl. Sync'd stats play a more pivotal role compared to not having tank stance.

To be honest, regardless of stances, on my Scholar, at the lowest level dungeons, I can AFK while my fairy does all the work.

[Awful]

To be honest, regardless of stances, on my Scholar, at the lowest level dungeons, I can AFK while my fairy does all the work.

Yep it's pretty faceroll which is fine you're not supposed to be a lvl 15 sch because you can't get it it's the only class that gets away with having an advantage over other classes by having a heal that scales with/better than cure spamming. All you need is Cleric Stance and that's it low lvl dungeons are a joke, protect really doesn't matter, and your fairy heals with no issues with Shield Oath at 15 it'll be even more faceroll healers won't have to worry about anything.

What I was trying to say is new players who are healers won't have to worry about healing at all if shield oath/grit/defiance are introduced at 15 just like tanks won't have to worry about threat it'll be super easy but won't teach them anything about their role the game doesn't start getting interesting until Haukke when jobs turn into their classes. That's why all tanks should get their stance at 30 as that's when you start to have more tools at your disposal compared to 15 where you don't have many traits/abilities. Just my thoughts on it.

[Kaeoni]

They could streamline the process, Wouldn't be anything wrong with doing that. But doing what the OP suggested; I don't think it would necessarily open tanking classes up to "The masses". I remember in 2.0 Paladin my first tank, pre flash Enmity buff and w/e else changed... Not going to lie and say it was easy to tank in those days. But It wasn't impossible. It just meant rotating flash a bit more frequently. The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

The Issue isn't "tanks need their tank stance earlier" It's "Tanks don't know how to use their toolkit effectively" And that's because they're new. It's understandable. 90-95% of the time tanks at low levels have the ability to hold threat. They don't because of bad information, habits, not reading tooltips, misunderstandings. Lots could be wrong. But the main problem is faulty pattern recognition. Something Human beings are probably the best at in the entire world.

Doing the same thing over and over again resulting in your healer dying over and over again? Maybe you're doing something wrong, JUST MAYBE. Without asking for help, any dummy can rationally come to the conclusion "Well maybe i'm doing something wrong, I should try something else". Making something faceroll like Sch's fairy main healing isn't right either. Just because that exists doesn't mean it should be the meta for early game. Why even give dps classes buttons to press in early game? Let them Auto-attack to freedom! RIGHT!?! RIGHT!?!?! *Cough* You're playing a video game. You're suppose to push some buttons. Some new Tanks just aren't pushing the right ones is all.

[Jas710]

The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

[Mattelot]

*snip*

I do agree with you. They do not need tank stances at 15, in my opinion. Sword and Shield Oath should have had their levels swapped.

Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

I take what self-proclaimed "experienced" players say with a grain of salt since I see so much conflicting information amongst the ones that deem themselves "cream of the crop."

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

I've played MMOs that introduce required quests that require you to use certain abilities that you acquire which helps someone visually see how they help them. Tooltips are not a great source of information... and this is coming from an Astrologian who learned Royal Road. Each person learns in a different way. Some call it "hand holding" while others call it "mistake proofing."

[Kaeoni]

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

If punching a coconut doesn't open the coconut, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that further punching the coconut will not result in you ingesting it's deliciously creamy white liquid.

-Kaeoni 2016