Variance in player skill is hurting FFXIV's itemization design.

[zosia]

This attitude right here is the very reason people are put off by raiders. How in the world does allowing everyone else to get caught up become synonymous with "welfare"? Should they just be happy with i210 gear until the next expansion? My guess is i220 crafted gear wouldn't even be available in a raider-approved version of XIV. Should those commoners simply be allowed to struggle through the new content unless they are accepted in the high-and-mighty raid FCs?

I'd be quite interested in your answers.

Yeah, I have tried being nicer to you people here, but so many of you just spit on raiders. So, I don't care anymore. If non-raiders are put off by the salt they have brought, maybe they should reflect on their own poor attitudes when raiders were expressing their concerns about gordias last summer.

I am not against catch up gear. I am against catch up gear while the raid tier is current. If a new wing of midas dropped with weeping city and there was new and more powerful gear to be had, I could really care less if Yoshida mailed everyone a set of 240 gear. A reward system that invalidates the rewards of a raid three months after it's released is a flawed reward system, no matter how badly you want to defend it. Catch up gear should come out when it's time to actually "catch up" rather than giving gear out when the ilvl is the current highest in the game.

I don't even have problems with 240 coming from easier fights. Primals should drop max ilvl raid gear, just like they did with garuda, titan, and ifrit EX. Just look how quickly Niddhog EX has fallen to the wayside. No one wants to work for subpar rewards (aside from alts), and now the PF is much less active with niddhog ex parties. That same effect can be seen in raiding.

Again, just look at the Level-4 interview where Yoshida was called out on how terrible the savage rewards are among other things. This game is becoming a joke.

The commonly-argued point is usually that you don't "need" top-end gear to do anything at the casual level.

where did I say that?

[Granyala]

You do know hunts are still a thing right?

Never cared about them.
Found them to be as ridiculously boring as Diadem.

I do chuckle about chat outrage when s/o pulls early though.

I am not against catch up gear. I am against catch up gear while the raid tier is current.

If you can't manage to get 4 bosses on farmstatus after 3 MONTHS, it is NOT the casuals problem and you probably need the Lore 240s in order to down the remaining bosses at all.

If you downed the bosses and don't get the loot, the problem is not the item level, the problem is retarded loot RNG.
I'd expect my raid of 8 people to be decently geared after raiding a place for 3 months.

BTW: if it were up to me, Mythic and Savage rewards would be unique cosmetic stuff only in order to curb the power creep a bit.

[zosia]

Never cared about them.
Found them to be as ridiculously boring as Diadem.

I do chuckle about chat outrage when s/o pulls early though.

If you can't manage to get 4 bosses on farmstatus after 3 MONTHS, it is NOT the casuals problem and you probably need the Lore 240s in order to down the remaining bosses at all.

Yes, for the world first and server first statics. But are you going to argue that every raid static should have all four floors down within three months to be properly rewarded? Any static stuck on a8s, a fight many consider to be harder than a4s, should have their rewards invalidated before they can even manage to get a kill? Please, between irl stuff, scheduling, and replacements, the average raid team is lucky to have reached A8S. You seem to be speaking from ignorance.

[Granyala]

Yes, for the world first and server first statics. But are you going to argue that every raid static should have all four floors down within three months to be properly rewarded?

If you can't down 4 bosses in 3 months, I have to break the news to you: Your raiders aren't savage material.
In WoW a Tier with 10+ bosses typically lasts 6 months and Mythic is pretty much the same difficulty as savage.

Please, between irl stuff, scheduling, and replacements, the average raid team is lucky to have reach A8S. You seem to be speaking from ignorance.

I raided 3 nights a week @ 3hrs in a guild that did NOT manage to clear mythic in time to the next patch (we got around 1/3rd to half way trough). I know what it feels like.

We weren't mythic material.
Simple, objective truth and we had to accept that the patches and reward cycle moved faster than we could.

Edit:
Come to think of it: you are actually LUCKY. In WoW, when a new patch and Raid Tier is deployed, the old one gets abandoned immediately, because it is rendered irrelevant.
Thus I have not seen many a mythic boss, because guilds immediately get busy in the new raid.
Here you have the luxury of getting a leg up on those missing 240 slots (essentially a mild encounter nerf over time by increasing your raids item level) and getting 3 additional months to shoot for a clear.

Ofc if you only raid for "them bluez" I can see how you may lose interest. To me, gear was always mainly a tool. The actual reward was to make that bastard eat dust.

[zosia]

If you can't down 4 bosses in 3 months, I have to break the news to you: Your raiders aren't savage material.
In WoW a Tier with 10+ bosses typically lasts 6 months and Mythic is pretty much the same difficulty as savage.

I have cleared every raid tier in this game 10 times before any nerf (aside from the initial nerf to twin). Please go on how I am not savage material. I might not be a server/world first raider, but I can get content down before nerfs or out gearing, so please save your asinine assumptions for someone that they will actually provoke.

I raided 3 nights a week @ 3hrs in a guild that did NOT manage to clear mythic in time to the next patch (we got around 1/3rd to half way trough). I know what it feels like.

We weren't mythic material.
Simple, objective truth and we had to accept that the patches and reward cycle moved faster than we could.

Yeah, show me which mythic raid tier had LFR giving out Mythic gear. That's what we are talking about, not weather you or I are "mythic" or "savage" material. Check you red herring detractors at the door plz.

Edit:
Come to think of it: you are actually LUCKY. In WoW, when a new patch and Raid Tier is deployed, the old one gets abandoned immediately, because it is rendered irrelevant.
Thus I have not seen many a mythic boss, because guilds immediately get busy in the new raid.
Here you have the luxury of getting a leg up on those missing 240 slots (essentially a mild encounter nerf over time by increasing your raids item level) and getting 3 additional months to shoot for a clear.

Ofc if you only raid for "them bluez" I can see how you may lose interest. To me, gear was always mainly a tool. The actual reward was to make that bastard eat dust.

I always clear content in this game before echo or nerfs. I was 239 when weeping city dropped and it was by my own volition that I was at such an ilvl. I will refer you to my earlier statement about your provocative assumptions.

And, yes, I raid for the gear, along with for the challenge, cosmetics, and story. Three of those four aspects are completely irrelevant to raiding in this game.

The story is killed in Normal mode, there is no sense of build up or progression.
Normal mode killed the appeal of aesthetics since the N and S versions of the gear look exactly the same with some of the best colors being default colors.
Gear is trivialized in this game, you don't need to raid to be in in raid equivalent gear.
The only thing is the challenge and we all saw how well SCoB savage went when challenge WAS the reward.

[Granyala]

I have cleared every raid tier in this game 10 times before any nerf (aside from the initial nerf to twin). Please go on how I am not savage material. I might not be a server/world first raider, but I can get content down before nerfs or out gearing, so please save your asinine assumptions for someone that they will actually provoke.

There are 3 ways to nerf an encounter:
-direct nerfst to abilities and mob stats
-indirect nerfs through buffs (echo)
-increasing the raids item level past the item level that was initially available.

If you clear an encounter while wearing the item level it drops because the 3 months period where said item level was exclusive to said encounter, you down the encounter in a nerfed state.
EG: clearing A8S while wearing 240s in slots you would otherwise not have had access to 240 items (chest me thinks).
OR: clearing A7S while wearing 240 relic weapons.

You can rage against that fact as much as you want, it will still be the truth.

Yeah, show me which mythic raid tier had LFR giving out Mythic gear. That's what we are talking about, not weather you or I are "mythic" or "savage" material. Check you red herring detractors at the door plz.

Blackrock Foundry Mythic item level: 695
Hellfire Citadel Normal item level (difficulty is about the same as Mhach, a little easier even): 690-705

Yes, the next normal in WoW (which is facerolld in one sitting by mythic raiders) drops BETTER loot as soon as it hits.
The (to mythic raiders) much more relevant heroic drops 705 to 720 wich is quite the difference, esp when you factor in new set bonuses.
Now you see why guilds immediately abandon previous tiers mythic and redirect all available time into gearing up in the next tiers Heroic to get ready for next tiers mythic ASAP.

[zosia]

There are 3 ways to nerf an encounter:
-direct nerfst to abilities and mob stats
-indirect nerfs through buffs (echo)
-increasing the raids item level past the item level that was initially available.

If you clear an encounter while wearing the item level it drops because the 3 months period where said item level was exclusive to said encounter, you down the encounter in a nerfed state.
EG: clearing A8S while wearing 240s in slots you would otherwise not have had access to 240 items (chest me thinks).
OR: clearing A7S while wearing 240 relic weapons.

You can get the augment primal chest to fill your 240 slot.

I had access to twines and the lore to get the chest, but it was terrible for my class. I instead use the Eikon chest. Please keep going on and making assumptions, It's cute.

You can be full 240 without clearing a8s, you just need a few weeks of a7s loot. Shows how much you know about FFXIV raiding. You are trying to be provocative, but rest assured, I am far from raging. Also, if you wanna talk facts, show me which wow mythic tier had LFR gear at a mythic ILVL.

That is a nice fact you like to ignore. While a mythic tier is current in wow, there is no way for players to get mythic ilvl gear without doing mythic raiding. How you can cite wow/mythic without addressing the rewards wow offers their raiders? That seems to be giant gaping hole in your fact sheet my friend.

Edit: After you went back to include your repose about wow, I included a new response below.

Yes, the next normal in WoW (which is facerolld in one sitting by mythic raiders) drops BETTER loot as soon as it hits.
The (to mythic raiders) much more relevant heroic drops 705 to 720 wich is quite the difference, esp when you factor in new set bonuses.
Now you see why guilds immediately abandon previous tiers mythic and redirect all available time into gearing up in the next tiers Heroic to get ready for next tiers mythic ASAP.

And like I said before, if there was a new wing of savage, I could care less about what drops in welfare city. So, like your saying in wow, the new normal tier would drop better gear. What you left out is that the following week, after mythic unlocks, there is new mythic gear that blows the new normal gear out of the water.

Where is my new savage gear since my old savage gear is invalidated now? Your argument has holes in it. Mythic raiders always have new mythic gear to chase down once their old gear has been trivialized. We don't have that fair exchange in this game.

[Granyala]

The story is killed in Normal mode, there is no sense of build up or progression.
(This is why multiple difficulties of the same raid suck, never was a fan myself)

Normal mode killed the appeal of aesthetics since the N and S versions of the gear look exactly the same with some of the best colors being default colors.
(This is indeed a gross design fail, Savage should have exclusive looks)

Gear is trivialized in this game, you don't need to raid to be in in raid equivalent gear.
(Good, but they should tweak it so raiders get their gear faster. The choice should be determination/loyalty vs skill. RNG loot works against that and frustrates raiders)

The only thing is the challenge and we all saw how well SCoB savage went when challenge WAS the reward.
(Intentional. Bleeding edge content only appeals to a TINY fraction of gamers. There is nothing wrong with that unless participation doesn't warrant dev efforts)

Stuff in bold = my answers to your statements.

You can be full 240 without clearing a8s, you just need a few weeks of a7s loot.

So why exactly are you blabbering on about: "Waah waah upgraded lore gear invalidates raid rewards!!11"?

Also: please read the edited information. I already gave you the proof you wanted in regards to WoWs item level distribution.

That is a nice fact you like to ignore. While a mythic tier is current in wow, there is no way for players to get mythic ilvl gear without doing mythic raiding. How you can cite wow/mythic without addressing the rewards wow offers their raiders? That seems to be giant gaping hole in your fact sheet my friend.

Well I'm biased in that regard, I openly admit it.
I think, being able to get to a similar power level of a raider is one of the charms FF has to offer, compared to WoW where your character remains useless trash unless you raid at least heroic.

Now, is it to soon to add 240 upgrades to the eso gear after 3 months or should they be gained at a slower pace than 1 item per week?
I think we could debate that one.
Maybe they should wait till the deployment of the next Tier so raiders get to keep their minor (and imho totally justified) advantage.

As long as SE looks to favor raiding over everything else without other content on the wings, non raiding content can suffer because of it.

Actually, the only problem was that they DIDN'T want to keep the item level gap.

If you keep a 10 item level gap betwenn Savage raiders and everyone else, most of these "special snowflake" / "not rewarding enough" comments would go away.
10 ilvl is noticeable, yes, but not crippling (yet, wait a few expansions >.<).

If you honestly must know why i care so much, its due to the fact that I raid lead. I have to deal with these motivations and when it comes time to replace someone (due to one reason or another), it saddens me that the raid talent pool keeps shrinking.

I can feel your pain.
As a retired officer I know all about motivational problems and the difficulty of "keeping things going".

But bribing people into the raids is not the answer. You only get people that aren't suited to diehard/bleeding edge challenge and merely want "them purplz".

Though I do think compromises should be possible. Grant savage raiders UNIQUE looking gear and a 10 item level power advantage.
Get rid of the RNG loot and make it a fair distribution.
Give raiders titles and mounts (I think they already do that, yes?)

BTW: I do think this will be the last post I can write for today, so I will edit in any remaining answers. Congrats to the idiot that came up with limited post counts per day on a discussion board lol.

[Kallera]

Zosia , Gordias savage came about because of the demands of the raiding tier. And in order to keep gordias its pie in the sky reward SE had to screw with other non raid content. The raiding scene was hurt the most, but they were the only ones affected by it.

As long as SE looks to favor raiding over everything else without other content on the wings, non raiding content can suffer because of it.

[zosia]

Stuff in bold = my answers to your statements.

So why exactly are you blabbering on about: "Waah waah upgraded lore gear invalidates raid rewards!!11"?

Also: please read the edited information. I already gave you the proof you wanted in regards to WoWs item level distribution.BTW: I do think this will be the last post I can write for today, so I will edit in any remaining answers. Congrats to the idiot that came up with limited post counts per day on a discussion board lol.

If you honestly must know why i care so much, its due to the fact that I raid lead. I have to deal with these motivations and when it comes time to replace someone (due to one reason or another), it saddens me that the raid talent pool keeps shrinking. I see raiding in wow, and it seems to almost had a resurgence at different points (as well as low points). Raiding in this game has only been getting progressively worse. Less people with more challenging content is only going to lead to a slow death, one that might be unavoidable at this point.

I want better raid incentives so I don't have to constantly keep motivating people. I want better incentives so people actually want to raid in this game rather than waiting for catch up patches. I am at my brink with raiding in this game and honestly think it's just better to sub for the last few months of an xpac when you can just DF +40% echo all of the content. I really think this game is going to end up such that people sub for a month for the story and unsub for two months until the next patch drops.

Zosia , Gordias savage came about because of the demands of the raiding tier. And in order to keep gordias its pie in the sky reward SE had to screw with other non raid content. The raiding scene was hurt the most, but they were the only ones affected by it.

As long as SE looks to favor raiding over everything else without other content on the wings, non raiding content can suffer because of it.

I agree, Gordias was just bad for the game. For everyone. What hurts one group, hurts the other. I even tried to create a peaceful olive branch thread back in august when gordias was taking statics out of the game at alarming numbers.

We need gear progression for all players, but we need to be fair about effort vs reward. I don't expect to ding 60 on WVR to follow up with doing 3/4 star crafting the week after. There needs to be a sense of progression for all with a fairness considered for those who get their first or put in more time than I do.

Lunch time over, o/