Suggestions and ideas for increasing interest in previous PvP content

[Zojha]

They would have to remove the ability to choose the map played.

I dunno. WoW managed to keep multiple battlegrounds over several levels populated, even when they were still only server internal (and faction restricted to boot).

In the end, it's all about population. If you could pick any frontline and expect a match within reasonable time, people would just pick the one they prefer to play. But since the population is way too small for that to work, everyone flocks to the one people expect to have the best chances of a pop, typically the newest.

[Eorzean_username]

In the end, it's all about population. If you could pick any frontline and expect a match within reasonable time, people would just pick the one they prefer to play. But since the population is way too small for that to work, everyone flocks to the one people expect to have the best chances of a pop, typically the newest.

The other issue I see is that the rewards are either consistent and generic (PvPXP and Wolf Marks) or Achievement-Grind based.

Once everyone grinds out the Achievement they wanted, they toss that Frontline away and never look back, because the next one will have a new Grind and offer the exact same generic rewards.

Tying something unique but sustainable in to each Frontline map would help keep motivation going long-term. Very rough example (not a great one): Secure offers Unidentifiable Seeds, Slaughter offers Bones, Seize offers Shells, Shatter offers Ore. Or you can get a unique Interceptor Node minion or Melted Magitek Armor from Secure, a Tomelith housing object from Seize, ... and so on. The devs have shown good initiative with dredging up older PvE content (Beast Tribes and Tier IV Materia, etc) and I know they could do the same for Frontlines.

Roulette offering zero reason to do it beyond the Daily defeats so much of its potential, as well. It doesn't even have to be much, just having any reasonable incentive at all tied to Roulette would make it more tempting than specific-queue for a lot of players.

Likewise, allowing leveling players to do the maps, but staggering the release throughout the leveling process would provide a semi-sustainable captive population for each map (You will Secure and you will like it! Until level 30, anyway) and also create nostalgia / affinity for each mode by forcing players to learn it and get used to it.

I'm not very concerned with the specific solution chosen (there are so many reasonable options), but I would like to see previous Frontlines maps get a status beyond 'Dead', because they're all fun and the variety helps a lot keeping PvP interesting (same as having more than 1 dungeon in PvE).

[Zojha]

Tying something unique but sustainable in to each Frontline map would help keep motivation going long-term. Very rough example (not a great one):[...]

Well...the main issue with the examples you list is that they largely function similar to achievement based rewards. If you take unidentified items for example, those become unattractive once these people finish that phase of the relic (unless they're crazy enough to do another one). Minions can be sold, sure, but if you look at the feast, it has just that - without GC restriction even. Granted, with role restriction, which is arguably far, far worse, but egh. The fact that they can be sold in fact makes many people disinclined to bother with PvP, as they can just buy it instead. But if it can't be sold...it's just like an achievement reward, unsustainable, you claim it once then you're done.

You can of course try to regularly create new grinds for the old content, but the issue in that lies in the fact that you might spread the willing community too thin for "anyone" to get what they want. The current community can often barely keep one FL going, even if you double it, you might have a hard time if you spread it over 4.

It really isn't easy to set the incentives right.

[Eorzean_username]

discussion

The 'spread' issue is a good point. It may be better to focus on making the Roulette more rewarding, so that everyone is still getting funneled together (just with more variety).

One thing about more flexible objectives than Achievements (which are hard binary Have | Don't Have) is that options like grinding up several different things in a more casual way, or selling the items for profit, can motivate more participants beyond the "I'm done" Achievement breakpoint. That said, a concern will always be that players are just queuing to farm and not really trying, decreasing match quality (but I guess Achievements and Wolf Mark rewards are just as risky for that, and my queues seem mostly populated by motivated players).

I agree the incentives are a difficult thing to adjust. I definitely view my ideas as just discussion topics rather than sacred solutions. However, I also observe that FFXIV's devs have an admirable talent for creating Gysahl greens that the majority of players are willing to chase and keep chasing — I think SE could revive or invoke a lot more interest in the PvP system if they put more weight into it.

[Eight]

The Grand Company lock is the biggest issue. I think they should add a GC Ranked and a non GC unranked mode. Ranked would be for GC standings and unranked would just be open to anyone regardless of what GC you're from. Ranked mode could give extra bonus for competing in it daily (maybe a few extra tomes) so that would give people incentive to do it and keep it alive.

If that can't happen because of the way the system is setup now they should add an optional mode that is open to everyone regardless of GC and instead of capture points being based on GC it could be team/alliance A,B,C.

They need something soon because it's become damn near impossible to even get into PVP anymore which is a shame because it's a lot of fun. Personally I don't care about the GC aspect of it and I rather just be paired with random people to just enjoy the PVP.

[Thekk]

The Grand Company lock is the biggest issue. I think they should add a GC Ranked and a non GC unranked mode. Ranked would be for GC standings and unranked would just be open to anyone regardless of what GC you're from. Ranked mode could give extra bonus for competing in it daily (maybe a few extra tomes) so that would give people incentive to do it and keep it alive.

Having 2 separate modes won't ever work with the current PvP population. Just take a look at what happened to 8v8 Feast when the ranked season started. Getting rid of GCs would be the thing to do, but we'll never know how hard that would be to implement unless SE says something since stuff like pvp ranks, standings and achievements are most likely meshed in. It's very unlikely to be as simple a change as people make it out to be.

[Eorzean_username]

The Grand Company lock is the biggest issue.

GC restrictions hamper the PvP base, but it's not the only issue and I think players fixate on it slightly too much. Consider:
Edited with Zojha's correction about Feast

• Feast 8v8, no GC restrictions (but role restrictions, which may be equally problematic), 20-30+ minute queues (for a 5-8 minute match) during Feast meta. Now roughly ∞ queue times with Shatter released.
• Feast 4v4, no GC restrictions (but role restrictions, which may be equally problematic), 15-20+ minute queues (for a 3-5 minute match) during Feast meta by the time I arrived late in the season. Now roughly ∞ queue times with Shatter released.
• Secure, Slaughter, Seize: Massively higher queue times than Shatter (trending to ∞ also) despite being the same content and having the same GC restrictions.
• I deliberately switched to a minority GC, cutting my typical queue times down by 50-75% of what I had to sit through as Aether Flames. However, I still encounter intermittent dead periods where the queue will tick up 40-45 minutes or longer. After I load into the match, if I ask around others experienced the same thing (so it's probably not some mysterious queue bug, it's just not enough players queuing at all during some play windows).
• JP datacenters have stable queues despite GC restrictions (My understanding is that JP dislikes GC restrictions for reasons of inconvenience, but not because GCs are stopping them from playing)

I don't think that removing GC restrictions will resolve issues like high turnover rate for previous content and a relatively small NA/EU PvP population. It's definitely one of several issues surrounding PvP that should be iterated and improved just due to community mandate (if nothing else), but I don't think GCs are the only issue and if other problems aren't also resolved, the result of GC dissolution might be surprisingly disappointing.

Something else to compare is PvE content with drastically high or effectively ∞ queue times: L50 EX Trials, Coils, and Savage Raid Finder. Similar to PvP, these:

• Are not a guaranteed victory (baseline or when sync'd down with strangers)
• Require coordination and communication (baseline or when sync'd down)
• Offer minor or zero incentive for using the Duty Finder to do it

On the other hand, even relatively small bribes like 120 Poetics is enough to keep MSQ Roulette (of all things) popping fast and consistently all day long. Many players are not thrilled with it, but they definitely do it.

[Zojha]

Feast 8v8, no restrictions[...]

Minor correction here: With role restrictions. The same role restrictions that cause tanks to have insta-queues and DPS to have 30 minute queues in PvE.

I'll be damned if that wasn't a big factor.

[Isala]

I dunno. WoW managed to keep multiple battlegrounds over several levels populated, even when they were still only server internal (and faction restricted to boot).

In the end, it's all about population. If you could pick any frontline and expect a match within reasonable time, people would just pick the one they prefer to play. But since the population is way too small for that to work, everyone flocks to the one people expect to have the best chances of a pop, typically the newest.

Here's the thing. What WoW did right, was actually have PvP content in their PvP. You were going to get killed, or kill someone. There was no way around it. The objectives were designed so that you must have a majority of them to win, and they were not a temporary thing, like we do here. You only have 2 of 5 bases? Better go slaughter the guys guarding one of them. Capture the Flag is self explanatory. There was PvWall, where we breached a keep, and the only way to stop it? Yup. KILL SOMEONE.

What do we have here? Kill this mob for points. Kill THIS mob for points... Where's the PvP? The more you fight your enemies, the less points you get from the mob. So taking the time to shoot anything but the mob is actually a detriment to your team. Think about that. ACTUAL PVP IS A BAD THING.

On top of that, there were serious rewards for PvP in WoW. Gear, and mounts, and titles out the wazoo. And I'm not just talking glamour gear. I'm talking gear you could actually wear and do content with. You could take it into a dungeon and wreck face with it. No, it wasn't as good as raid gear, and nobody (barring a few slow players) ever claimed it was. But it wasn't this massive 35 ilvl gap we have here, where a dungeon drop is better than gear you have to put in several hours worth of play to earn.

It's simple carrot and stick ideals. You give people a reason to do something, they'll do it. But here, it's stick and stick. There is nothing worthwhile, unless you're a serious PvP player. The mounts take an obscene grind, as they require wins, something your GC might not even be capable of. The titles are literally just "GRIND THIS OUT" to the tune of thousands of wins. Look at Feast. In order to get all the titles, you need 5k wins across 5 roles. Because, you know, that is fun. Whereas in WoW, you got achievements for actually DOING something. Capture the flag 3 times in a match. Kill a Flag Carrier in his own base, while they own their flag. Destroy [x] Siege engines. You got achievements for DOING, not just grinding.

[Zojha]

Here's the thing. What WoW did right, was actually have PvP content in their PvP.

So do we: Feast and Wolves den in particular. Seize is pretty much Arathi with randomly spawned, timed nodes and used to have lots of player interaction when I was in there (though admittedly, the weakest GC often tried to avoid confrontation for obvious reasons). I can't say for Secure and Slaughter, never got in there. Plus, I fondly remember winning "many" Warsong Gulches all on my own by simply sneaking the flag to the other side while everyone else zerg'd.

As for the carrot and stick...in classic WoW, all noteworthy rewards were locked behind PvP rank or reputation. PvP rank was attained how? By grinding. Depending on your relative standing at the end of the week, you'd get points and be promoted/demoted in rank, with only the highest ranks having better stuff than normal dungeon gear. Reputation followed the same formula and only exalted had any noteworthy endgame gear, the unstoppable force of Alterac being a classic among arms Warriors and the odd lolRet Paladin that refused to cave in. For the most part, though, you'd get nothing out of it. You couldn't even level with it and achievements weren't in the game yet either. Despite this, PvP population was rather healthy - only some servers really sucked due to relations of like 20% Horde and 80% alliance.

I dunno. I agree that WoW apparently had something we do not and I also agree that the incentives set for PvP are catering to dedicated PvPers, while leaving little to the more casual PvPer. I'm not sure what you think is the issue is the actual issue however.