Suggestions and ideas for increasing interest in previous PvP content

[Isala]

I dunno. WoW managed to keep multiple battlegrounds over several levels populated, even when they were still only server internal (and faction restricted to boot).

In the end, it's all about population. If you could pick any frontline and expect a match within reasonable time, people would just pick the one they prefer to play. But since the population is way too small for that to work, everyone flocks to the one people expect to have the best chances of a pop, typically the newest.

Here's the thing. What WoW did right, was actually have PvP content in their PvP. You were going to get killed, or kill someone. There was no way around it. The objectives were designed so that you must have a majority of them to win, and they were not a temporary thing, like we do here. You only have 2 of 5 bases? Better go slaughter the guys guarding one of them. Capture the Flag is self explanatory. There was PvWall, where we breached a keep, and the only way to stop it? Yup. KILL SOMEONE.

What do we have here? Kill this mob for points. Kill THIS mob for points... Where's the PvP? The more you fight your enemies, the less points you get from the mob. So taking the time to shoot anything but the mob is actually a detriment to your team. Think about that. ACTUAL PVP IS A BAD THING.

On top of that, there were serious rewards for PvP in WoW. Gear, and mounts, and titles out the wazoo. And I'm not just talking glamour gear. I'm talking gear you could actually wear and do content with. You could take it into a dungeon and wreck face with it. No, it wasn't as good as raid gear, and nobody (barring a few slow players) ever claimed it was. But it wasn't this massive 35 ilvl gap we have here, where a dungeon drop is better than gear you have to put in several hours worth of play to earn.

It's simple carrot and stick ideals. You give people a reason to do something, they'll do it. But here, it's stick and stick. There is nothing worthwhile, unless you're a serious PvP player. The mounts take an obscene grind, as they require wins, something your GC might not even be capable of. The titles are literally just "GRIND THIS OUT" to the tune of thousands of wins. Look at Feast. In order to get all the titles, you need 5k wins across 5 roles. Because, you know, that is fun. Whereas in WoW, you got achievements for actually DOING something. Capture the flag 3 times in a match. Kill a Flag Carrier in his own base, while they own their flag. Destroy [x] Siege engines. You got achievements for DOING, not just grinding.

[Zojha]

Here's the thing. What WoW did right, was actually have PvP content in their PvP.

So do we: Feast and Wolves den in particular. Seize is pretty much Arathi with randomly spawned, timed nodes and used to have lots of player interaction when I was in there (though admittedly, the weakest GC often tried to avoid confrontation for obvious reasons). I can't say for Secure and Slaughter, never got in there. Plus, I fondly remember winning "many" Warsong Gulches all on my own by simply sneaking the flag to the other side while everyone else zerg'd.

As for the carrot and stick...in classic WoW, all noteworthy rewards were locked behind PvP rank or reputation. PvP rank was attained how? By grinding. Depending on your relative standing at the end of the week, you'd get points and be promoted/demoted in rank, with only the highest ranks having better stuff than normal dungeon gear. Reputation followed the same formula and only exalted had any noteworthy endgame gear, the unstoppable force of Alterac being a classic among arms Warriors and the odd lolRet Paladin that refused to cave in. For the most part, though, you'd get nothing out of it. You couldn't even level with it and achievements weren't in the game yet either. Despite this, PvP population was rather healthy - only some servers really sucked due to relations of like 20% Horde and 80% alliance.

I dunno. I agree that WoW apparently had something we do not and I also agree that the incentives set for PvP are catering to dedicated PvPers, while leaving little to the more casual PvPer. I'm not sure what you think is the issue is the actual issue however.

[Cleanse]

WoW has a larger population, data centers are divided by region etc. Also, Horde players used to have long queues.

I do like the suggestion to limit what maps are available. Funneling people into 1-2 maps, while removing the GC restriction would help a bit.

Even still, the PvP community is really tiny. It feels a lot of the dev time is wasted the way they are currently creating content.

[LalafellDown]

you have interesting ideas for rewards/drops, but where is the fun factor? No amount of rewards will help a boring PVP... like feast.

[Isala]

I dunno. I agree that WoW apparently had something we do not and I also agree that the incentives set for PvP are catering to dedicated PvPers, while leaving little to the more casual PvPer. I'm not sure what you think is the issue is the actual issue however.

WoW had the most important thing. A reason to fight. Two factions, creating an Us vs Them mentality from the very second you created your character. That was the original draw. As that faded over the expansions, the actual rewards increased dramatically. XIV has never had that spark, that desire to fight. We're all Warriors of Light. Why SHOULD we fight each other? So the rewards for doing so MUST BE GREATER. In WoW, I could start a brand new character, get to level 10, and PvP my way to cap, leveling and gearing up, never actually even bothering with PvE content. Can't do that here. Used to be able to play in the Wolves' Den at 30. Which was actually quite enjoyable. Can't do that anymore. So, instead of building it up, giving us something to do alongside the main adventure, they toss it at you at 50/60 like, "Oh. Here. Have... something?" Something you can't use to make money. Something you can't use to gear up. It is of literally no use to your character. So why would we get a grand PvP community like WoW does?

We have:

1. No reason to fight.
2. No tangible rewards.
3. No way to level from PvP.
4. A sloppy GC bound "attempt" at creating faction hype.

And yet, WoW does exactly that. They gave us all of those things, done so much better, long before the PvP in this game was even a crooked smile on a developer's face. Why then, can this game not understand such basic concepts when it comes to a PvP mentality, and stop making decisions that just kill PvP even more?

[Zojha]

In WoW, I could start a brand new character, get to level 10, and PvP my way to cap, leveling and gearing up, never actually even bothering with PvE content.

Note that this came later (Late BC or WotLK, I think) and was often argued to be mostly a method to deal with "PvP alts", min-maxed 19/29/39/49 characters with endgame enchantments and BiS gear, who easily slaughtered any normal player thanks to having 5 times their health pool and higher damage. Leveling with PvP effectively killed that and freezing XP put you into a separate queue.

Personally, I surmise it's simply a difference in community mentality. If you look at JP and EU/NA differences, you'll find that JP PvP is much more healthy and their raiding scene (and success) is much bigger as well (Despite having the same rewards as in NA/EU). JP seems a lot more performance focused and competitive. NA/EU on the other hand is far more casual and less competitive. It's no wonder PvP, a competitive mode by nature, does not thrive under such circumstances.

[Eorzean_username]

you have interesting ideas for rewards/drops, but where is the fun factor? No amount of rewards will help a boring PVP... like feast.

The idea is just to try to increase queue population, and unfortunately based on PvE evidence, I think bribery and accessibility is a more efficient solution for that (especially in the short term) than refined iteration and perfection of the content (which is a long-term and potentially unreachable goal).

The dedicated core PvP base is already here, it just needs queues that fill faster so matches happen more consistently and reliably. It's true that increased accessibility and rewards would draw in players less interested in the match quality than the payoff, but faced with either 40 minute queues filled with dedicated players or 10 minute queues partially populated with half-hearted tourists, I personally would prefer to just play more. (Others may differ)

Also, the more players drawn in for a wider variety of reasons (and thus motivated to overcome their fear, disinterest, or distrust of PvP), the more interested players the population has a chance to pick up. I never would have tried PvP without a bribe (i205 weapon in my case), but I discovered I actually like it and now PvP an important part of the game for me.

[Chill_Ghost]

-Add in a weekly rotation of PVP specific mounts and minions that can drop at a 20% rate for the Grand Company that wins. The mounts and minions need to be very unique and recognizable so no birds or horses
-Make more pvp armor and raise the ilvl cap. Fix morale stat
-Make Grand Company specific vanity armor that you can buy for Wolf Marks at your Grand Company
-Make General Purpose dyes buyable with wolf marks. I know that kills the Pure White and Jet Black market but it's absurd anyways

The only other thing I can think of is having Gilgamesh spawn at an extremely low rate if the match is neck and neck and all Grand Companies band together to defeat him. All Grand Companies get a win if you beat him but if Gilgamesh wins, he takes everyone's winnings. Give the whole, "Even though we are enemies, we are still friends at the end of the day" vibe. Make it rare and hard to replicate so it doesn't really ever change the current matches but amazing when it actually happens

[Enlial]

Now that you guys mention it, they did have something like morale in wow didn't they? It reduced the chance to be crit in pvp or something and was a pretty effective carrot on a string since everyone thought they'd became instantly pro once they had enough of it. Might not be a bad idea to bring it back, but I think they'd need to make a new stat on new gear... the current morale gear is wayyy too easy to get

[Thekk]

Now that you guys mention it, they did have something like morale in wow didn't they? It reduced the chance to be crit in pvp or something and was a pretty effective carrot on a string since everyone thought they'd became instantly pro once they had enough of it. Might not be a bad idea to bring it back, but I think they'd need to make a new stat on new gear... the current morale gear is wayyy too easy to get

I kinda like the current sync system for gear however as it gives you a lot of freedom in choosing your secondary stats. Having a single piece of pvp gear per slot per tier would force you into something suboptimal unless they let you pick them akin to a relic.