Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[zosia]

my question is, what's the point in confusing the newbies even more or introducing non cookie cutter builds? What point does it serve rather than adding extra reason for players to yell at each other?

New players could be exposed to it slowly over time, just like most aspects of the game. You don't need to add weapon effects, horizontal progression, or gear sets to any of the 1-50 content. Even with that point in mind, GC vendor gear already exposes leveling players to set bonuses and item effects. So to that part of the questions, I would say it does not seem like a valid concern since new players are already being exposed to such concepts on live servers and the meat of the system would be waiting for them in the end game.

There sould be less focus on "what about the new players" and more emphasis on what currently subbed players want. This game has over 5 million accounts but can't keep a fifth of that as active subscriptions. Horizontal progression is something people have been asking for since 2.0. Maybe the cookie cutter content with vanilla stats needs to be reconsider? It seems troubling to me that this game has blow through over 5 million players and has only retained less than 800k active subscribers (which is probably being generous at this point).

Added horizontal progression can give players more to work towards. It can give rewards more staying power when the items attributes and worth are not just defined by ilvl. Adding depth to the game engages players more on a cognitive level and can help with player retention.

Scruity is fine it's how it's usually done that's the problem... The bolded part alone shows our concerns are justified.

I thought this whole thing was supposed to bring more choice to players? Community generally agrees staff x is better than staff y, staff x becomes the accepted version for content.

This isn't about players playing poorly or not knowing their class well it's about itemisation that's supposed to bring choice to players.

I was not rude or brash in your bolded segment. If people are rude or harass other players, we have GMs to take care of that. Your concerns of rude scrutiny are already covered by a code of conduct included in the ToS. Otherwise, if a player wants to play their own way, they should play with like minded people and this game is FULL of laid back casuals that don't care about a person's optimization.

Yes, The whole concept is to bring choices, but I was addressing a specific concern about an item being generally accepted as better for a certain fight. You can have both choices and and items generally considered better for a fight. A good example of this paradigm in work is blm on a6s. You can either use a max ether and get an extra flare off on the five dolls or use a max pot of int. Both are good dps gains for a blm, both choices suffice for the fight. A BLM choosing option A or option B will not prevent the group from getting a kill. Is one choice better than the other? Sure. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I would try the max ether 1st and see what dps gains I get from that. Results aside, this is a novel personal choice that adds some depth to this situation. Before max ethers, this situation would have never been possible. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that this same paradigm be translated to gear. As it stands now, we don't even really have gear builds, we just have "maximize your preferred secondary and hit acc cap, donezo!"

[EdwinLi]

This thread has gone completely off it origin topic now into introduce gear sets and must conform into the majority set meta stats or be kicked from even the casual Random group content topic for introducing such gear sets.

Such fun watching this thread crash and burn this fast.

If SE introduce something meant to give players more options but causes the majority to reduce options for "Meta Setup Only" then they did something wrong with that release content.

This topic is about introducing content that gives player more options and things to do in the long term. Not make them into a mind set of limiting their own options or get kicked by the majority.

As for gear with unique abilities...

Didn't Yoshi-P said back in a 2.0 interview that he plans to eventually introduce those Special Gear sets with Unique Gear set abilities during or after 4.0?

or was that 5.0?

[zosia]

This thread has gone completely off it origin topic now into introduce gear sets and must conform into the majority set meta stats or be kicked from even the casual Random group content topic for introducing such gear sets.Such fun watching this thread crash and burn this fast.

If SE introduce something meant to give players more options but causes the majority to reduce options for "Meta Setup Only" then they did something wrong with that release content.

This topic is about introducing content that gives player more options and things to do in the long term. Not make them into a mind set of limiting their own options or get kicked by the majority.

As for gear with unique abilities...

Didn't Yoshi-P said back in a 2.0 interview that he plans to eventually introduce those Special Gear sets with Unique Gear set abilities during or after 4.0?

or was that 5.0?

Does it really matter which xpac he promised it in? Just like the addon API, Egi glamours, more mid core content, horizontal progression, etc etc etc, we will be told look forward to it in the expansion only to never see it come.

[Cynric]

Horizontal progression works better in an action game. In a game like this it would just be illusory. If something is so good you can use it for a year even with new gear coming out that sounds terribly imbalanced. Id love to see more depth in game but id rather see something far more innovative than these boots increase speed by 25% better use them for a year.

[Reinha]

The only rewards in this game are vanity. You only need to wait for the latest savage patch, buy the latest crafted gear, meld it and your effectively close to the ilvl cap. The gear treadmill in this game is already in such a state that content like Niddhog EX goes live with essentially vanity rewards.

If SE did horizontal progression like WoW, I would love it. Imagine if the niddhog weapons, being 235, actually had weapon effects and in the right hands those effects would make the weapons effectively ilvl 240/245 performance wise. That would be amazing.

I had no idea that tomestone weapons, upgrade items from 24-mans and relics are vanity. Trial rewards are a joke for anyone who isn't gearing their alts or catching up, but that's not an excuse to screw things up even further and extend it to all gear options. Like how is that an argument... With horizontal progression even alts wouldn't find any use of future primal weapons. That is objectively a worse situation than we currently have, not something to aim for.

Now if we're talking about "horizontal" progression like in WoW, which is actually vertical because every patch raised the item level cap, then sure bring it. I played that game for over 5 years and not once did a patch introduce gear that were only sidegrades and not upgrades. A few choices for a gear slot within a patch can hardly be called horizontal, because in that case we already have horizontal progression in the form of materia. You can cast faster, hit harder or get some mp, your choice. Adding more stats and effects is just more variety. It's not horizontal progression if new content always brings noticeably more powerful gear and everyone replaces their old gear. I have no problem with more variety but I do have a problem with being stuck with the same gear for multiple patches with no reason to do content and nothing to spend my tomestones on.

You speak of weapons with special effects and I think the closest equivalent in WoW were legendaries (relics). The funny thing is, they actually reduced the number of meaningful options and made things more vertical, because only an absolute spastic would give up such powerful items when given the choice. Example: at a certain point in MoP the cape options from raids were practically useless apart from being enchant (materia) mats, because anyone who played actively had a legendary cape. That's why there will be no other weapon choices in Legion except the upgradable legendary weapon. A clear upgrade in power is still a vertical progression step regardless of item level. Horizontal is when you have multiple options equal in strength that change your playstyle, like materia or weak set bonuses.

There isn't any answer for that because not every piece of gear would be upgradable. Your gear would be situational at best if your example. But this doesn't have to be full blown vertical to horizontal progression as many people are trying to perceive it as. People see things differently. I personally want some variety in a DPS rotation. Some situation pieces could do that depending for example. Or say Nidhogg weapons have attributes to do bonus damage against Nidhogg(makes running him multiple times easier). It doesn't need to be huge or anything.

That's not horizontal progression. That's vertical progression with more stat variation per patch. We already have a lite-version of that in the form of materia. If patch duration stayed the same and we got an item level upgrade every patch, that'd be fine by me. I like upgrading my gear. What I am against is the request that "gear lasts longer" (see below), i.e. we have to suffer a longer time without any rewards from doing content. It would be like staying 230 forever an only getting materia of equal power but with different effects from all content. This is a personal preference and I can't be swayed to like stagnation any easier than I can be swayed to like blue cheese.

No one wants to feel their time is wasted. Rather, we want to be rewarded for our spent time. When FFXIV renders everything we've worked for obsolete every few months it feels as though nothing we strive for matters, no goals have lasting benefits for us, so why even set goals? Why strive for anything? Why keep playing?

There's that slippery slope again. Does it really need to be 10 rings? How about a more REASONABLE amount, like 3-4 rings. How about gear that could be relevant for more than six months? Why does it have to be "forever"? You know at best gear would only be relevant for an expansion? Even then, powerful or relevant gear would probably only last a few tiers despite having desirable effects.

[HeavenlyArmed]

Horizontal progression works better in an action game. In a game like this it would just be illusory. If something is so good you can use it for a year even with new gear coming out that sounds terribly imbalanced. Id love to see more depth in game but id rather see something far more innovative than these boots increase speed by 25% better use them for a year.

Right, but even illusory choice would be better than the extremely boring streamlined crap we're being fed right now.

Heavensward provided new content, new skills, and the same DPS algorithms. Those algorithms work in every instance of the game, from level 1 through level 60. The instance trash and bosses use them.

I've played through MMO Beta content enough to know that changes to the way damage is calculated can cause unintended consequences. That's one of the reasons I consider "throwing developers at a problem" is simplistic at best. That other MMO doesn't produce content for over a year when making such changes.

Seriously, would you be willing to actively subscribe while waiting that long? I know millions of players of another MMO who answered "no".

I know millions of players of FFXIV who are willing to pay for a subscription to play through content that is updated every 3 months. Who would you cater to?

Right, because we've totally never seen stats fundamentally change in how they function, such as having effects added or removed or split between multiple other stats and any time we have it's doubled the wait time we would have had normally, right? What do you mean 3.2 wasn't delayed and had a change like that?! 3.0 as well?! That can't be! What do you mean every single secondary stat had some change in 3.0?! And it wasn't even delayed?! You have to be kidding me!

Yeah, or maybe these concerns aren't based anywhere remotely near reality.

Scruity is fine it's how it's usually done that's the problem... The bolded part alone shows our concerns are justified.

I thought this whole thing was supposed to bring more choice to players? This isn't about players playing poorly or not knowing their class well it's about itemisation that's supposed to bring choice to players.

ie: Community generally agrees staff x is better than staff y, staff x becomes the accepted version for content. ^ optimisation taking away the choice that the new stats are supposed to offer.

And because of that it's not even worth attempting to add for the players who want it? Even when it won't add any toxicity that players don't already express anyway? So basically, no, we can't have depth because depth as a concept can't exist in your mind. Well that opinion is terrible, and I'd be in favor of at least seeing the devs try to add something more interesting in terms of stats.

but what is the point in adding that toxicity? I was in GW2 which ultimately summed up with "zerk or out".

And I was in Wildstar where it was as long as you're good enough to not actively hinder the group, no one cares. And I was in this game where as long as you're not doing so poorly that you're preventing us from clearing it's exceptionally rare that anyone will say anything even if you're clearly not playing as well as someone who's put hundreds of hours into the game should be.

[Underdog2204]

To be honest, we have that sort of mindset already. Because in most cases, people will seek out Crit/Det for most classes. BLM is SS/Crit. WHM/AST(Det/Piety) and SCH(Crit/Acc). Healers probably have the most room for optimization though just so they can meet accuracy caps. But here's the thing, we can't move away from these stats because they are not optimal. If I see a tank for example with nothing but parry and accuracy, even I would be taken a back. I won't say anything, but I'd be skeptical. It's only when player execution becomes a problem that things are addressed. People don't really care too much about your gear until something isn't being killed or you're messing up a mechanic.

I don't think the community would fall apart at a little more depth towards item customization when the end all is still "Do mechanics right".

Sorry I missed this response

Yeah I understand the problem being ridiculous in regards to choosing things that don't benefit your character, but I would think SE would be smart enough to not add useless stats to the items for the class it was designed for if they were implemented.

Ok fine if such as change was to happen I'd go along with it, who knows it could well probably be a good thing and no-one can predict the future. Worrying about what "might" happen is me being stupid... I mean nothing changes if everything just stays the same (if that makes any sense).

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

If we're talking about more stat variation, sure, it's all the same to me. I'll math out what's best for me and ignore everything else. Gear veing relevant for more than 3-6 months. NO. JUST NO. That would be the most boring game ever! I quit monster hunter because I already had the best gear I could get, if I get my best gear at the very start of an expansion, what am I supposed to doI? Unsub 2-3 years because literally everything is worthless?

[Lorielle]

I quit monster hunter because I already had the best gear I could get, if I get my best gear at the very start of an expansion, what am I supposed to doI? Unsub 2-3 years because literally everything is worthless?

The ironic part is now flip it. Once you meet the max iLvl, you practically got nothing else going for you. We're two sides of the same coin. It's just the other side probably has a little more "mmph" to it.

[Caelum_Dragguell]

if I get my best gear at the very start of an expansion, what am I supposed to doI? Unsub 2-3 years because literally everything is worthless?

We can turn your argument on its head. I believe that this is the current case for gear. We cap Ilv in a patch and then what? we barely log in for 3-6 months other than to craft and make money and do some extra side content that may have been introduced. Anyway my original post wasn't about gearing, it was about having more content in the game overall that felt meaningful and worthwhile rather than having slim pickings that keep someone entertained for 1 day or 1 week. With the way the game is now I could unsub for 2-3 years because everything that came out in that time would be worthless and obsolete, see my point?