I hope the next expansion reverses Heavensward's emphasis on rotations

[Jijifli]

Ya, and I should be able to stat whatever I want.

I shouldn't have to learn a damned thing about my character, right? Spell Speed PLD a'hoy.

[Nalien]

The C word is forbidden here

customization

Since skill-bloat is something I'd really like to avoid at this point, I'm really hoping SE goes back and revamps cross-class skills for 4.0... (either that or we get traits instead of skills for 4.0, but that's somewhat boring)

Currently, I loath the cross-class system... It's clearly designed with Classes in mind (and Classes are a pointless leftover from 1.0), since they get a much nicer selection that actually does provide some degree of customization... When you get to Jobs though, you're limited to options from two Classes and those options rarely have me questioning what to pick... I can set Savage Blade on Dark Knight? Please...

Instead, I'd rather see SE change the whole system for Jobs... Rather than Ninja setting Invigorate, Ninja instead does a quest for a new skill which is essentially the same, but mechanically different (perhaps its effect is tied to Venoms like Jugulate, for example)... What's more, you don't just limit Ninja to Lancer/Pugilist equivalent skills, giving us much more options to play with... Keep the same 5 skill limit, but a system like that could provide a lot of potential for customization based on what you're doing and who you're doing it with... Party composition is something I'd really like to impact rotations more... Like, right now every DPS needs Invigorate, I'd rather have a situation where setting "Invigorate" is an option, not a requirement... Having a Bard, for example, should let me go "OK, I don't need this, I can set this for more damage instead". Can also open the door up for using other Jobs skills, too... Dark Knight, to me, should always have a HP sacrifice move and a move that does more damage with lower HP, in XIV it also has a large focus on MP... Convert and Spirits Within strike me as obvious choices here; One sacrifices HP to restore some MP, the other does more damage the higher HP is (so just reverse that for Dark Knights version). Not exactly Convert and Spirits Within of course, half this idea is changing their effects slightly rather than just out right copying other Jobs... Perhaps Dark Knights "Convert" lets it use HP for Dark Arts instead of MP, and it's "Spirits Within" isn't a Minus Strike style attack, but instead a short buff that stacks amazingly with Living Dead (since you'd be dealing more damage and thus regaining more HP from Souleater).

With a system like that, we wouldn't end up with far too many skills on our hotbar, we'd have potential for a lot of customization, and it would focus less on knowing a static rotation and more on knowing the fight/what your party can do. If I'm Dark Knight, and I'm doing a fight where I know I really don't need "Provoke", I can set something different instead. Shame SE probably thinks we're too dumb to have something like that, since it would require a "Check your skills" step before encounters, or failing that they're just out right too lazy to attempt to balance any degree of customization in this game... Would make for a much more interesting system IMO though, could potentially insert some variety into rotations, since your play style would slightly change based on what you've set, and you could/should change what you've set based on the content... You wouldn't have two wildly different rotations for two different dungeons, but you could have some small alteration, which I'd find very refreshing at this point...

[Shurrikhan]

Since skill-bloat is something I'd really like to avoid at this point, I'm really hoping SE goes back and revamps cross-class skills for 4.0... (either that or we get traits instead of skills for 4.0, but that's somewhat boring)

Currently, I loath the cross-class system... It's clearly designed with Classes in mind (and Classes are a pointless leftover from 1.0), since they get a much nicer selection that actually does provide some degree of customization... When you get to Jobs though, you're limited to options from two Classes and those options rarely have me questioning what to pick... I can set Savage Blade on Dark Knight? Please...

Instead, I'd rather see SE change the whole system for Jobs... Rather than Ninja setting Invigorate, Ninja instead does a quest for a new skill which is essentially the same, but mechanically different (perhaps its effect is tied to Venoms like Jugulate, for example)... What's more, you don't just limit Ninja to Lancer/Pugilist equivalent skills, giving us much more options to play with... Keep the same 5 skill limit, but a system like that could provide a lot of potential for customization based on what you're doing and who you're doing it with... Party composition is something I'd really like to impact rotations more... Like, right now every DPS needs Invigorate, I'd rather have a situation where setting "Invigorate" is an option, not a requirement... Having a Bard, for example, should let me go "OK, I don't need this, I can set this for more damage instead". Can also open the door up for using other Jobs skills, too... Dark Knight, to me, should always have a HP sacrifice move and a move that does more damage with lower HP, in XIV it also has a large focus on MP... Convert and Spirits Within strike me as obvious choices here; One sacrifices HP to restore some MP, the other does more damage the higher HP is (so just reverse that for Dark Knights version). Not exactly Convert and Spirits Within of course, half this idea is changing their effects slightly rather than just out right copying other Jobs... Perhaps Dark Knights "Convert" lets it use HP for Dark Arts instead of MP, and it's "Spirits Within" isn't a Minus Strike style attack, but instead a short buff that stacks amazingly with Living Dead (since you'd be dealing more damage and thus regaining more HP from Souleater).

With a system like that, we wouldn't end up with far too many skills on our hotbar, we'd have potential for a lot of customization, and it would focus less on knowing a static rotation and more on knowing the fight/what your party can do. If I'm Dark Knight, and I'm doing a fight where I know I really don't need "Provoke", I can set something different instead. Shame SE probably thinks we're too dumb to have something like that, since it would require a "Check your skills" step before encounters, or failing that they're just out right too lazy to attempt to balance any degree of customization in this game... Would make for a much more interesting system IMO though, could potentially insert some variety into rotations, since your play style would slightly change based on what you've set, and you could/should change what you've set based on the content... You wouldn't have two wildly different rotations for two different dungeons, but you could have some small alteration, which I'd find very refreshing at this point...

Just yes. Yes to all of this.

Take my opinion with a this grain of salt of course — I would have preferred that the class system never be scrapped in the first place, while the jobs instead feel like additional cross-class choices that focus on deepening rather than broadening gameplay, each available to a particular (or particular few) class(es) as a powerful but far from exclusive option — but I think just about anyone would agree that the cross-class skills need a bit more adaptability to feel anything more than a battered relic of conflicting design choices.

That said, I feel like there are both certain safeties or changes that would be needed to make composition-based decisions in terms of skill loadout feel right and certain general design changes that would make all this work a lot easier.

The first is relatively simple. Allow players to queue as up to say, three different jobs, assigning or ordering preference, so that the entered party takes on a decent composition even through matchmaking. This would of course be more effective if ilvl wasn't as strong as it is, but for those who gear up multiple jobs at once this should add positive elements of flexibility and efficiency. It might even eventually open up the way for cross-server specialized parties, bulletin boards, etc.

The second involves a simple but pervasive design philosophy change: don't make identical skills among different classes. For instance, Skull Sunder should differ from Savage Blade, each better fitting their own class gameplay but useful to others as well. The first may, for instance, deal suppressive damage or a mini-pacify based on damage dealt. The second may deal damage based on damage actively or RNG-mitigated for up to 2 seconds before the animation completes. In either case, they are no longer different only in icon and name, or at best in their being gateway to a 280 enmity-damage combo vs. 260 enmity-mitigation receptively.

I'd prefer to see more on the second, such as bringing in more class traits that pervade the whole or nearly the whole of the class's gameplay, and for certain of those traits to then be cross-class-able, but the above is certainly the most obvious place to start. Undermechanics, such as suppressive damage or 'stagger', and partial AoEs – all attacks that look like AoEs are now AoEs, albeit still weaker in that function than true AoEs, and/or using different damage-splitting or -multiplying equations – would likely be the second. But, with time, I don't see why we couldn't have all three. I believe there's certainly enough potential in the result to warrant the development, so long as content can make use of what's given (which may well mean gradual changes to its design philosophy as well).

[FoxyAreku]

Those who have mastered the rotations and never take breaks from the game probably enjoy it.

This line really bothers me about the OP, because it seems to imply that only people who play nonstop will be good at the rotations.

If you find the rotations in this game difficult or complex at all, please don't ever play any other MMO. The rotations in this game are actually mind-numbingly simple compared to most games in the genre, WoW pre-draenor comes to mind.

[Colt47]

This line really bothers me about the OP, because it seems to imply that only people who play nonstop will be good at the rotations.

If you find the rotations in this game difficult or complex at all, please don't ever play any other MMO. The rotations in this game are actually mind-numbingly simple compared to most games in the genre, WoW pre-draenor comes to mind.

I play dragoon and may that job forever be an example of what one should never do when designing a rotation. The entire point of a rotation is predictability so that once it is learned, you can pay attention to what is going on around you, and to keep it under X number of button presses so the person doesn't need to reorient their hand in order to use an ability. The later is the reason we ended up having hardware manufacturers making peripherals: Because the software developers decided they arbitrarily wanted to add more buttons than the human hand is capable of reaching from one start position! Dragoon is both too many buttons and is unpredictable. There's no way to play it optimally without taking ones eyes off the screen. I haven't seen BLM yet, but I've heard that one does suffer a few similar issues.

[FoxyAreku]

snip

I for one like the unpredictability myself, it makes it interesting. That's one thing I like about the rotations, it's less of a rotation and more of a priority system. WoW rotations got boring after awhile.

[Felis]

There's no way to play it optimally without taking ones eyes off the screen.

I don't have that problem with my controller. Every button is in reach of my fingers without looking at the controller.

[Colt47]

I don't have that problem with my controller. Every button is in reach of my fingers without looking at the controller.

I play primarily with PC, so that's one of the differences. Another detail is that I don't play FFXIV judiciously enough to justify mastering an estoric button mapping of shifting to different skill bars just to use an ability within finger reach. If it isn't visible on the screen and can be ctrl+number clicked via left hand, then that button is too far away. Some people may be perfectly fine with this old horse system, but it's better to be focused on actually seeing what is on screen than to be switching between controls and the screen.

Adding in something like randomly flip flopping between side attacks and frontal to max damage, + remembering to use cooldowns before using jumps, + remembering to use the dragoon level 60 ability when you have enough time saved up is way too much work for a rotation. I'm not entirely sure what other games some commentators have played that have even more complex rotations, but this games rotation system at end game IS very, very complex with some jobs. Also, keep in mind this game encourages playing multiple roles / jobs, so the rotations need to be simple enough that they aren't a burden when swapping between two or three other jobs. That's just not happening at the moment.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

I can't really judge all the classes but I can say from leveling BLM and SMN, I'm not really a fan of the whole "you can use these awesome buttons only when under this buff" type of mechanics. BLM in particular feels cumbersome.

I also think many classes have redundant skills as they level up that should be traits that buff an existing skill rather than adding a new action button. For example, Stone, Stone II, and Stone III. Outside of the snare on Stone, II and III are basically more powerful versions of the same spell. Why not have II and III be traits that simply improve Stone? This would also make syncing down less of a pain since traits going inactive would just reduce the enhanced skill to its base level (e.g. Stone III becomes Stone when you sync into a tam leveling roulette). I think many classes could benefit from such a change

[Yasuhiro]

I also think many classes have redundant skills as they level up that should be traits that buff an existing skill rather than adding a new action button. For example, Stone, Stone II, and Stone III. Outside of the snare on Stone, II and III are basically more powerful versions of the same spell. Why not have II and II be traits that simply improve Stone? This would also make syncing down less of a pain since traits going inactive would just reduce the enhanced skill to its base level (e.g. Stone III becomes Stone when you sync into a tam leveling roulette). I think many classes could benefit from such a change

Because that's how spells have nearly always worked in Final Fantasy games the next tier is always more powerful version that does more damage, ara or aga (II or III) spells generally target all enemies on the screen and the spells in this game are great too because they have extra things like heavy and other debuffs.