Dark knight

[Chronons]

snip

You make great points Syz. I agree that while in the MT slot DRK has the potential to match or supersede WAR in dps. I was under the impression we were only talking about DRK OT dps? If DRKs OT dps is behind by a small margin then I would anticipate the gains from Reprisal, Low Blows and Blood Price would bridge or supersede that gap. I think where we are really in disagreement is that gap. You think it is negligible and I tend to think it is greater than negligible.

I agree with you that some of the numbers on FFlogs are corrupted by player practices, but are you really going to make the blanket statement that all of the data contained there is useless in this regard? That seems to me a bit more extreme than being suspicious of how exactly SSS works. The common knowledge is and has been that WAR does more dps than DRK when relegated to the OT slot. Further, there is data and collective experience to back that notion up. I guess i'm not prepared to throw all that to wind over SSS?

As a side note, I genuinely hope I have not come across as hostile to you or DRK in general. Even if I am correct and DRK is behind WAR in OT dps I don't think anything is wrong with DRK or that it needs to be fixed in any way. Especially "fixes" designed to compensate for player's lack of skill. I respect you greatly for what you have done here on the forums especially regarding DRK. When I came back to the game after a long break and started maining DRK, yours is the guide I learned from and where I teach others from. I say that, to say I understand your displeasure when ppl underestimate or wrongfully talk down DRK. Thats not my intent at all, rather just an intellectual exercise in theory vs practice.

[Drkdays]

OT drk definitely suffer from not being able to use blood price or reprisal reliably. It's a "use a drk arts ability regain a bit of mana and repeat until you need to focus on just recovering mana" story that's made even more difficult if you have to keep grit on for short swaps. OT warriors are able to reset their fel cleave just by using a combo and don't suffer at all from stance swapping. They don't even lose their stacks if I remember correctly. Certainly a difference there, at least for OT.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Thank you Chronons, I'll admit I get pretty impassioned on some of these debates. The more I study DRK the more I see design parallels between the other tanks and SE's intentions become more clear, and sadly being an advocate for this job in certain ways isn't always easy. People have a lot of prejudices.

OT drk definitely suffer from not being able to use blood price or reprisal reliably. It's a "use a drk arts ability regain a bit of mana and repeat until you need to focus on just recovering mana" story that's made even more difficult if you have to keep grit on for short swaps. OT warriors are able to reset their fel cleave just by using a combo and don't suffer at all from stance swapping. They don't even lose their stacks if I remember correctly. Certainly a difference there, at least for OT.

I disagree. While OTing, should you maintain proper uptime, Blood Weapon reliably grants you over 3K MP per use. When a swap is coming, you should go into it with at least 3K MP and be preparing to meet that quota beforehand. The lack of Blood Price while OTing should not hurt you at all. In fact you should still be popping it on cooldown to get an extra piece of MP from any stray raid-targeted damage.

I think some people use the Scourge-DASE-Delirium-DASE-Delirium-repeat rotation too rigidly. You can chain together as many Deliriums or as many DASE's as you want, but you're always going to need to use an equal number of them to safely maintain. If you just swapped with your OT, you can hit Blood Weapon and chain together 4 DASEs and then start spamming Delirium in preparation for the swap back.

Next, you should never keep Grit on after a swap no matter how short it is. You should be dropping that shit pronto. Blood Weapon is only 15 seconds long. You don't even need to turn it back on immediately when you swap back unless your co-tank is deliberately fighting for aggro. As long as you prep a Power Slash it should be easy-peasy. Anyway if you turn Grit back on for a swap and find yourself at critical MP you've over extended yourself. No two ways about it, that's what happened man, I'm sorry.

People complain all the time about LD requiring healer intervention, WAR's entire tank stance is designed from the ground up on healer intervention. Sure they can make up the difference with SW or Equil, but what good WAR is going to blow those cooldowns for that purpose? That would be highly inefficient. WAR gets *zero* eHP gains from switching into Defiance until A. They blow their precious stacks on IB, or B. Get healed. DRKs, like PLDs, get an instant, infinite IB (albeit on that does no damage) as soon as they swap. Consider that.

There is also often a bit of downtime between swaps (moving back to and from the boss for mechanics, adds, boss jumping, etc.) where you can activate tank stance with no DPS penalty (since you're not interrupting your DPS - b/c its downtime). A7 and A7S is a perfect example of this. While OTing, there's boss jumps, adds to run back and forth to (when Plunge is on CD, anyway), etc. between the tank busters. Activating Grit at any of these points ensures that the only thing lost is MP, and not a GCD that could have been spent on anything else.

Reprisal is a subject that I, from the bottom of my heart, am extremely tired of debating with people.

Reprisal is an amazing ability and one that, having only while tanking, is an issue of balance. You have a Storm's Path and it is A. Not combo locked, B. Not a DPS loss, and C. doesn't cost a GCD.

Reprisal functions as DRK's shield. It is not part of their defensive cooldown kit, its something extra. Like PLD has a shield, WAR has heals, etc. The Reprisal-parry synergy causes DRK to take 10% less damage between 50-60% of the time than the other two tanks. Its like a built-in Eye for an Eye. The fact that it is raid-utility as well is a bonus.

That being said, I do agree that extra utility while not getting hit (I word it that way since no tank really should be the de-facto 100% OT all the time) is a thing that DRK could use. I do not think it needs to have Reprisal 100% of the time though, nor do I think that would be balanced.

[Drkdays]

Provoking without grit is extremely unwise. And you need to follow up voke, even with grit, with some sort of agro builder which, unless you have a tanking combo in the works already, means more mana. Correctly OTing with DRK takes some planning ahead. While I don't think that's a terrible thing, it sure isn't something warriors have to worry about. They can even restore the needed TP at will. That and their simple to build and use fel cleave, which can instantly be transformed in a heavy agro attack, is why I think warrior OT have it easier than DRK OT. A solution would indeed be more skills available or a tweak to an existing skill for OTing. Such as convalescence like blm or greater mana regeneration from blood weapon or make plunge grant enmity when grit is active. Using an ether before taking back agro is an option, but relying on an item so you can maximise DPS without concern seems uncool.

[Lyth]

You don't need to swap back into grit before a tank swap. I do this all the time when swapping back during Claw/Fang in Eggnog Ex, and a single gritless SpS + PS before switching to blue tether is enough to hold aggro. There are no cleaves during this part, and the only significant damage spike is Ala Morn at the end, which you can just LD if you like. Your decision to swap with grit depends on the anticipated incoming damage following the swap.

It's also worth noting that WAR's SS generates more enmity than FC, and that DRK's SpS generates more enmity than either of these.

Speaking of LD, while I like the skill (and in some ways felt it was more useful than the other two equivalents prior to 3.2), I don't like that the difficulty of the check is linked to a primary stat. Being dependent on your healers isn't an issue - you're going down to 1 hp, so I would hope that you would need healer intervention. But it became noticeably more difficult to make the check after the tank stat changes in 3.2, especially during clutch situations, and it's contingent on the difference between healer and tank ilvl. You could say that this is "working as intended", but it would be nice to have an ultimate ability that wasn't at the mercy of stat/gear calculation changes like this.

[Chronons]

OT drk definitely suffer from not being able to use blood price or reprisal reliably. It's a "use a drk arts ability regain a bit of mana and repeat until you need to focus on just recovering mana" story that's made even more difficult if you have to keep grit on for short swaps. OT warriors are able to reset their fel cleave just by using a combo and don't suffer at all from stance swapping. They don't even lose their stacks if I remember correctly. Certainly a difference there, at least for OT.

I don't think DRK really suffers from not having access to Blood Price or Reprisal while OT. In fact Blood Price is only a substantial dps increase when both it and Blood Weapon are available ie. MT not in Grit. Having that extra damage locked behind being able to stance dance is fair in my opinion. No different really then tanking in Deliverance or Sword Oath - you get more dps if you can play the classes well. Reprisal is a free Storms Path that can stack with your Delirium - would be waaay too OP if it was at will.

I cant think of any short swaps that I wouldn't drop Grit for, as long as you aren't pushing your MP to dangerous limits you should have plenty to step back in. Plus Blood Weapon is likely ready to go if you were just MTing in Grit.

Thats an interesting point about Fell Cleaves and WARs. I would actually give DRK the advantage in that regard. If a WAR blows a big cooldown to extend the Abandon timer they are out that resource for 60-120secs. Whereas as DRK if I accidentally Dark Arts(like before a boss jump) i'm only out that MP - a resource I can actively work to generate back. Also, in all fairness we cant just say WARs get to stance dance for "free". They just suffer a different cost than us. For them stance dancing costs dps (Defiance is -25% to their dps) for us it costs MP and far less dps (1.5kish MP and -8% to our dps). What that means is they are going to be more likely to stance dance then we are as it benefits them more to be risky. That doesn't make stance dancing "easier" or cheaper for them in my opinion, just different.

[SyzzleSpark]

Provoking without grit is extremely unwise. And you need to follow up voke, even with grit, with some sort of agro builder which, unless you have a tanking combo in the works already, means more mana. Correctly OTing with DRK takes some planning ahead. While I don't think that's a terrible thing, it sure isn't something warriors have to worry about. They can even restore the needed TP at will. That and their simple to build and use fel cleave, which can instantly be transformed in a heavy agro attack, is why I think warrior OT have it easier than DRK OT. A solution would indeed be more skills available or a tweak to an existing skill for OTing. Such as convalescence like blm or greater mana regeneration from blood weapon or make plunge grant enmity when grit is active. Using an ether before taking back agro is an option, but relying on an item so you can maximise DPS without concern seems uncool.

You seem to be cherry picking what parts of my posts you read and acknowledge and which ones you don't. At least grant the courtesy of reading and comprehending all of it as I'm extending you the same.

I never implied that I would make or advise anyone else to make the incredibly novice-level mistake of not following up voke with some sort of potent enmity CD.

I take risks all the time with co-tanks that I trust. Hell if I DO have Grit on, sometimes I'll follow up voke with something as "weak" as Scourge+(insert oGCD here) and be fine. Hell even an uncomboed Power Slash, like RoH and BB, still carries its enmity modifier for a quick 550 potency of hate (although very inefficient, it can catch you if you screw up).

That said when progressing on a fight or learning anything, you should ALWAYS have an enmity combo in the works, that's a given. WAR isn't exempt from that either. It also absolutely cannot just "restore TP at will". Its a 60s CD that is far more frequently used for its healing effect than TP. And if you're running out of TP on DRK something is wrong because it should take a VERY long time (close to 7 minutes with Blood Weapon).

I fail to see how Fell Cleave is any easier to build or use than Carve and Spit or Souleater. WAR gets stacks simply by moving through its rotation, just like DRK gets MP simply by moving through its rotation.

I greatly condone and encourage DRK's to use ethers where applicable, glad you brought that up. I used to pop them between chain pulls in A6S. Very handy. There's nothing uncool about maximizing your performance in a raid environment. That's half of what you bring to your team - your performance (the other half being what you do to facilitate theirs). Let me ask you this: We all know Xeno, and he spawned a generation of aggressive (or at least, attempting to be aggressive) WAR mains. Why do we shame DRKs or even PLDs that play with this same level of aggression, particularly when they can pull it off, but when WARs do it we cheer and link parses and post screenshots? Hell DRK is so bloody fast paced you're cheating yourself if you're not playing it aggressively IMO. I think the community needs a DRK version of Xeno, frankly.

I'm wondering Drkdays why you don't main WAR honestly. You've said PLD is boring and have many complaints about DRK, some of which you've not revealed to stem from something of an envy for WAR abilities. It seems like WAR being more complex than PLD and less high maintenance than DRK would be a better fit for you.

It's also worth noting that WAR's SS generates more enmity than FC, and that DRK's SpS generates more enmity than either of these.

Speaking of LD, while I like the skill (and in some ways felt it was more useful than the other two equivalents prior to 3.2), I don't like that the difficulty of the check is linked to a primary stat. Being dependent on your healers isn't an issue - you're going down to 1 hp, so I would hope that you would need healer intervention. But it became noticeably more difficult to make the check after the tank stat changes in 3.2, especially during clutch situations, and it's contingent on the difference between healer and tank ilvl. You could say that this is "working as intended", but it would be nice to have an ultimate ability that wasn't at the mercy of stat/gear calculation changes like this.

Yeah, FC hype is still alive and well right down to how much aggro it generates. For posterity, here are some numbers:

Before buffs its 500 potency with no modifier which makes it weaker than Flash for enmity.

With full tilt buffs (zerk, Maim, Deliverance) its still only 500*1.5*1.2*1.05=945 potency of enmity. Butcher's Block is 1540 before buffs, and Power Slash is 1650, again, before buffs.

I'd normally agree with the bit about LD, but so frequently is a Bene saved for it that the increase in HP didn't seem to make a difference honestly. That and healer MND stats (and secondaries in general, with the melds on gear now) have shot through the roof and go some way to compensate. A regen and AST's ED are often an instant relief of WD as well. Whatever MH you have, Eos/Selene is also likely to be spamming Embrace on you as well, also shortening the gap a bit.

Maybe I just can't see the issues with LD because I never use it in dungeons and I have a very good healer with their finger on the button everywhere else. I've just never been exposed to any genuine problem with it.

[Drkdays]

lol wonder away all you like. Not gonna bother with explaining myself to you. Brb pizza just arrived.

[SyzzleSpark]

lol wonder away all you like. Not gonna bother with explaining myself to you. Brb pizza just arrived.

[Drkdays]

No, you can't have any.