Dark knight

[Mattelot]

Donjo, (s)he posted a link to a calculator. I asked more than just 1 question. None were actually answered. I asked what triggers people to do that. I asked other questions too and repeated them. That person evaded and proceeded to mildly insult.

Did SE actually author that site? If I make a website and quote parts of the game, does that mean SE is the author. If I say I'm the best player in the game and I disagree, does that override what you say?

[SyzzleSpark]

I just realized the math in my post at the top of page 6 is wrong since it doesn't take into account Scourge's DoT.

In reality its more like 80-85% of DRK's DPS that benefits from the slashing debuff, rather than 90%.

However, even then:

WAR - 1044.44 DPS to clear NEX dummy.
DRK - 972.44 DPS to clear NEX dummy.

972.44*1.08 = 1050.23

Even if you got more conservative and said only 75% of DRK's damage benefits from slashing:

972.44*1.075 = 1045.373

TLDR - A DRK with a slashing debuff for all intents and purposes = WAR in DPS. That means the gap between them without that debuff is < 10% I.E very small.

Hell, even Yoshi P. said this was the case in a past live letter. Everyone laughed at him then because we were all scrubs that couldn't play the job worth a damn but now we're eating our words.

[Chronons]

TLDR - A DRK with a slashing debuff for all intents and purposes = WAR in DPS. That means the gap between them without that debuff is < 10% I.E very small.

To be fair, this math is under the assumption that SSS is based on equal skill among the three tanks. If DRK is in fact equal, or near equal, to WAR in OT dps there should be evidence of it in places like FFlogs. However, when I look at it I notice WAR on average out dps' DRK when they are OT. The only time I see DRK getting very close is when they are MT - Quickthinks Allthought for example. Which would support the old mantra of OT: WAR>DRK>PLD MT: DRK=WAR>PLD

[SyzzleSpark]

To be fair, this math is under the assumption that SSS is based on equal skill among the three tanks. If DRK is in fact equal, or near equal, to WAR in OT dps there should be evidence of it in places like FFlogs. However, when I look at it I notice WAR on average out dps' DRK when they are OT. The only time I see DRK getting very close is when they are MT - Quickthinks Allthought for example. Which would support the old mantra of OT: WAR>DRK>PLD MT: DRK=WAR>PLD

FFLogs is not as reliable because due to the immense popularity of WAR they are often given preferential treatment as far as making room for their DPS. They are also more frequently OTing while DRKs are more frequently MTing, which usually entails at least some Grit usage, which explains the numbers on FFLogs. Those numbers can be skewed/inflated/doctored but the SSS site cannot.

FFLogs is almost never a reliable source by itself, for that reason.

[Chronons]

Oh, I agree that number inflating on FFlogs is a thing. Which is why I would only consider the average as an indicator. Also, i'm looking specifically at whether the DRK/WAR is OT or MT before making a judgement call.

As an aside we could look at PLD do see if SSS is indicative of equal skill. NEX dummy is 936 for them, do all PLD skills get buffed by slashing? If so PLD is 1029.6 and that seems way off.

[Chronons]

FFLogs is not as reliable because due to the immense popularity of WAR they are often given preferential treatment as far as making room for their DPS. They are also more frequently OTing while DRKs are more frequently MTing, which usually entails at least some Grit usage, which explains the numbers on FFLogs. Those numbers can be skewed/inflated/doctored but the SSS site cannot.

FFLogs is almost never a reliable source by itself, for that reason.

After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

[SyzzleSpark]

After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

Not claiming anything to be fact or anything with what I'm about to say, but you also have to account for the fact that DRK and PLD hit their target a LOT more than WAR does, in general (more oGCDs, more DoTs, more AAs, all of which can crit). The more hits the higher the likelihood you'll see crits just by virtue of their being more rolls for it through more instances of damage dealt. If WAR pulled ahead by crits alone its DPS advantages probably wouldn't be considered as valid as they are.

Its extremely common for high end groups, after they've cleared content, to go back in and try and see what the most insane numbers they can parse are on a given class. There's an A8S clear of a PLD doing over 2000 DPS. You think they got that DPS just by playing normally and getting the same equal treatment as everyone else? Lol no. So the data on FFLogs does have a lot of fudge in it.

The 3 minutes of hitting the SSS dummy I consider more reliable because there is no way you can fudge the numbers at a given gear level. Not to mention at the current tier all tanks share gear. You're working exclusively with what the job itself is bringing to the table with no outside help (no Balances, extra TAs or Hypercharges, etc.)

Anyhoo, the point of my posts wasn't to devalue WAR's DPS, it was to show that DRK's DPS is behind WAR's by an overall inconsequential amount, at least in the presence of a slashing debuff (these are Yoshi P's words as well, keep in mind). In fact back in the days of STR tanking a DRK MTing out of stance could actually pull ahead of their OT WAR on certain fights. All of this is just to say DRK doesn't need any kind of DPS buff like the OP is suggesting.

As far as SSS being equal between classes, all the dummies have a set HP value based on the job they're designed for, so that a DRK dealing 972.44 DPS will be able to kill its dummy with slightly less HP in the same 3 minutes that the WAR would be able to kill its dummy with slightly more HP if maintaining 1044.44 DPS. That's really the only difference is the HP values, which you have to have.

For instance if all the dummies had 291680 HP (the value required of MNK on Nidhogg Ex) then no job other than MNK would be able to clear that dummy at a reasonable gear level. All of this is to say that the dummies have varying HP but as far as we know there are no other differences between them based on job.

[Donjo]

Donjo, (s)he posted a link to a calculator. I asked more than just 1 question. None were actually answered. I asked what triggers people to do that. I asked other questions too and repeated them. That person evaded and proceeded to mildly insult.

Did SE actually author that site? If I make a website and quote parts of the game, does that mean SE is the author. If I say I'm the best player in the game and I disagree, does that override what you say?

You specifically asked her for proof that Dark Knights and Warriors had similar DPS ceilings. She gave you this answer and then you argued about sources and other things while she explained that if you're going to question things so much than you should just go find the already documented information. When you refused to do this she gave you some already documented information which you're still attempting to debunk on completely unfounded grounds.

Here it is in the simplest possible terms. Square Enix wrote and programmed the game. If someone takes a bunch of data from Square Enix's game and places it on a website without adding any additional information of their own... then Square Enix is the author of all of the information contained on the site, not the person who put it there. If you make a site that contains a combination of quoted bits from the game and your own input, then your input is yours and the quotes are Square Enix's.

Following that, it's your turn. If you wish to carry on with the notion that WAR and DRK do not have similar DPS ceilings, then the burden of proof is now on you. Prove that the information you have been given is incorrect enough to discredit the conclusion that the two jobs can deal similar damage. Make sure to include proper citations.

[Mattelot]

Donjo, the burden is far from my shoulders. I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered which no, they were not. You're looking at a small portion of the conversation and cherry picking what you believe is an answer. I'm sorry that I'm not going to take a ransoms word for it.

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks? Google.com and you can figure it out yourself, I won't spoon feed you. Not all of us are naive. I believe change should be made. If you don't agree, your opinion doesn't matter because you don't play by my standards. See where I'm going with this?

[Donjo]

Donjo, the burden is far from my shoulders. I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered which no, they were not. You're looking at a small portion of the conversation and cherry picking what you believe is an answer. I'm sorry that I'm not going to take a ransoms word for it.

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks? Google.com and you can figure it out yourself, I won't spoon feed you. Not all of us are naive. I believe change should be made. If you don't agree, your opinion doesn't matter because you don't play by my standards. See where I'm going with this?

Aww, look at that. You're evading the question! Weren't you complaining about people doing that earlier? How adorable.