Dark knight

[HoodRat]

Aww, look at that. You're evading the question! Weren't you complaining about people doing that earlier? How adorable.

To be fair, you didn't even tell him what format he should use for his citations.

[Chronons]

FFLogs is not as reliable because due to the immense popularity of WAR they are often given preferential treatment as far as making room for their DPS. They are also more frequently OTing while DRKs are more frequently MTing, which usually entails at least some Grit usage, which explains the numbers on FFLogs. Those numbers can be skewed/inflated/doctored but the SSS site cannot.

FFLogs is almost never a reliable source by itself, for that reason.

After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

[SyzzleSpark]

After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

Not claiming anything to be fact or anything with what I'm about to say, but you also have to account for the fact that DRK and PLD hit their target a LOT more than WAR does, in general (more oGCDs, more DoTs, more AAs, all of which can crit). The more hits the higher the likelihood you'll see crits just by virtue of their being more rolls for it through more instances of damage dealt. If WAR pulled ahead by crits alone its DPS advantages probably wouldn't be considered as valid as they are.

Its extremely common for high end groups, after they've cleared content, to go back in and try and see what the most insane numbers they can parse are on a given class. There's an A8S clear of a PLD doing over 2000 DPS. You think they got that DPS just by playing normally and getting the same equal treatment as everyone else? Lol no. So the data on FFLogs does have a lot of fudge in it.

The 3 minutes of hitting the SSS dummy I consider more reliable because there is no way you can fudge the numbers at a given gear level. Not to mention at the current tier all tanks share gear. You're working exclusively with what the job itself is bringing to the table with no outside help (no Balances, extra TAs or Hypercharges, etc.)

Anyhoo, the point of my posts wasn't to devalue WAR's DPS, it was to show that DRK's DPS is behind WAR's by an overall inconsequential amount, at least in the presence of a slashing debuff (these are Yoshi P's words as well, keep in mind). In fact back in the days of STR tanking a DRK MTing out of stance could actually pull ahead of their OT WAR on certain fights. All of this is just to say DRK doesn't need any kind of DPS buff like the OP is suggesting.

As far as SSS being equal between classes, all the dummies have a set HP value based on the job they're designed for, so that a DRK dealing 972.44 DPS will be able to kill its dummy with slightly less HP in the same 3 minutes that the WAR would be able to kill its dummy with slightly more HP if maintaining 1044.44 DPS. That's really the only difference is the HP values, which you have to have.

For instance if all the dummies had 291680 HP (the value required of MNK on Nidhogg Ex) then no job other than MNK would be able to clear that dummy at a reasonable gear level. All of this is to say that the dummies have varying HP but as far as we know there are no other differences between them based on job.

[Chronons]

I completely agree DRK doesn't need a buff to Darkside like the OP suggested. I hope I didn't come off as though I did? That would make PLDs life even worse and make DRK super cheese mode to play. It would be like a 100% uptime unchained. Just ew.

I only meant to question the notion that DRK=WAR in dps while OT (assuming slash debuff). There are a lot of variables in SSS that we just aren't privy to. We assume that equal skill is required of each class, but there is no way to actually know this. It could be that DRKs SSS dummy is harder for them to beat than the same one for a WAR.

Which is why I look to things like FFlogs or parsing data on the internet to see if they support or deny what the SSS dummies seem to indicate. Unfortunately they do not. I understand FFlogs has ppl that will push the limits of whats possible through trickery, but to dismiss all of it bc there are some outliers is unfair I think. Its a valuable resource in seeing how the math works out in practice.

For example on your server (Diablos) WARs out dps DRKs by an average of 150-200dps on. If I plotted all the values on a distribution scale none of them would stick out to me as outliers worthy of corrupting the data. If DRK can match WAR in OT dps how is this the case? I dont think Grit is the culprit as most DRKs are dropping it after one PS combo and being in the MT slot should push their dps higher than what they can do as OT (assuming they aren't turtled in Grit). They are all bringing a slashing debuff. On even the smallest servers greater WAR dps is a trend. I doubt very seriously that players on the smallest servers are pushing to inflate numbers like some of the big ones. So i'm left with two options: Either the all the data from FFlogs is invalid, or SSS may not be 100% indicative of what is possible regarding tank dps.

I tend to lean towards the latter.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Yes, I think a DRK with a slashing debuff can match, or come very close to, a WAR in DPS. I can't account for how people play or cater to their roles on FFLogs though. I would be very upset with myself if my WAR bested me be a whopping 200 DPS, I'd need to check my job stone to make sure I hadn't accidentally clicked on my PLD gearset. I'd only expect this on a first clear of a fight with me MTing the entire time and no swaps.

What I can tell you, is that WAR is easier to play than DRK, easier to maximize, more favored in a raid setting, and also has almost double the parses on FFLogs. So no, I don't trust FFLogs to be 100% accurate and I think SSS paints a more objective picture. A lot of Alex has been very burst oriented, with few long sustained dummy fights like T8. WAR is extremely bursty, DRK is very sustained. For example MCH outdpses DRG and NIN on current content. That's an example of a raid tier bending over and taking it in the no-no place from a job by design and mechanics, not the jobs actual DPS potential relative to other jobs. If a DRG or NIN got outdpsed by a MCH in a fair dummy fight with no mechanics (dummys speak volumes about the job but not about the skill of the player - job is what we're discussing here, not so much skill), they'd have to be very undergeared or bad.

Think about it. I don't know if you raid or you don't, but in a raid, outside of the necessities of raiding with a static (handling mechanics, supporting team mates, etc. ) you are trying your hardest to maintain essentially the same rotation as you would on a dummy, during sustained phases anyway. Anything that pulls you off of that is a fuck-up on someone's part or a mechanic. So a dummy shows what you would do under perfect circumstances. Are you saying that the SSS dummy for WAR is easier for a WAR to clear than a DRK's SS dummy is for a DRK of equal gear? One requires less skill? Just because you assume in the opposite direction of me doesn't make one assumption less valid. But as your assumption assumes something that frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense (some jobs arbitrarily have SSS dummies that will tolerate an inefficient or less-skilled rotation at a given gear level), I'm gonna respectfully disagree.

What's the primary culprit of bad DPS on good players in raids? I'm not sure, but I'm going to guess that uptime is in the top 5. The idea that DRK does so much less DPS than WAR, aside from generating threads like this, also leads to people sending their DRK to do mechanics before sending their WAR. Also DRK MTs aren't just sitting out of Grit 100% of the time in the current raid tier. Are they jumping out of it at every opportunity? You bet, but Midas hits a lot harder than Gordias did and no DRK is doing what you described without heavy catering-to. I don't think its incorrect that as far as tank DPS is concerned people will make concessions for their WAR that they won't make for their DRK. If given an equal catering-to, yeah, I think a DRK in DPS stance with a slashing debuff will match a WAR. But people will seek to maximize a WAR's DPS before a DRK's, that's just the meta.

I mean think about it. You don't find it strange that there are more parses for WAR (7662) in NA servers on FFLogs for Midas Savage than for any other job in the game (next closest being SCH at 7234)? That means WAR is incredibly popular and DRK with less parses than any other jobs other than SMN, BRD, and AST, you really think FFLogs paints an accurate, full, objective portrait that can be trusted over a dummy parse that may or may not arbitrarily require more skill between jobs? o.o

[HoodRat]

Not sure what it's worth exactly, but if you go to the link Violette gave on page 4 and you check the two drks who made it on there, their dps was higher than that of the war's in their parties.

[SyzzleSpark]

Not sure what it's worth exactly, but if you go to the link Violette gave on page 4 and you check the two drks who made it on there, their dps was higher than that of the war's in their parties.

Yeah. Generally when you cater to one job it hurts another. On an SSS dummy nobody is catering to you. I'm honestly not sure why people are so suspicious of them. I think some people have this idea that they're trying to measure skill, but they're not, they're measuring your DPS. General skill as a player encompasses more than that.

[Razard]

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks?

Did you know that 87.5% of statistics can be made up on the spot.

Your point?

[SpookyGhost]

Did you know that 87.5% of statistics can be made up on the spot.

Actually, it's 88%.

Cite your sources next time. :^)

[Razard]

Actually, it's 88%.

Cite your sources next time. :^)

Oh sorry. I always forget. Thanks for the correction ^^