Live Letter XXX Discussion Thread

[MomomiMomi]

The Aquapolis is just like that, you don't know what you'll end up finding in there, what rewards you'll get, how many rewards you'll get. Sometimes you'll get to the 7th room, sometimes you'll only get to the 3rd room, sometimes you'll find a rare room instead of a normal one. Just like the map system.

None of which would change with some of the proposed changes, except that it would make it a more interesting way of achieving the same goal.

In fact, my proposed changes would make it more random. But it'd be interesting randomness and not pass or fail.

[StouterTaru]

How is that any more difficult than "YOU LOSE!"? That's the highest difficulty possible right there. I sure as hell can't beat it. Nobody can.

Are you saying that making the fights require flawless play and teamwork or result in a wipe is a better system? Remember how quickly they nerfed Steps of Faith? And that wasn't even that hard; you could have 3 dead weight party members and still beat it.

Maps are a casual content where you can grab a couple friends and have fun screwing around and doing something a little different from normal instances. There's not enough stuff in the game like and, and it doesn't need to be turned into something that requires a static.

[MomomiMomi]

Are you saying that making the fights require flawless play and teamwork or result in a wipe is a better system? Remember how quickly they nerfed Steps of Faith? And that wasn't even that hard; you could have 3 dead weight party members and still beat it.

Maps are a casual content where you can grab a couple friends and have fun screwing around and doing something a little different from normal instances. There's not enough stuff in the game like and, and it doesn't need to be turned into something that requires a static.

If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

RNG is a useful too for making an environment seem more real, because most real life experiences seem very random. In actuality, most things are not random, but they are the result of many different factors, too many to feasibly program into a game to give the same effect. So, in order to provide that sense, RNG is used.

However, RNG in FFXIV is not used to make things seem more real, it's used to create very frustrating restrictions to reduce inflation. As MomomoMomi mentioned, it is one way to address the problem, but it is not the only way and certainly not the best.

You appear to have an issue with gaming in general if you're complaining about RNG. You've had horrible experiences with the Desire Sensor, haven't you?

[Kaurie]

So what would be the best way then?

• A grind like the unidentified token system, where you get one token each time, and it takes several to buy something nice with them?
• A very low drop rate, where you get to complete it each time but have your RNG in a different mechanic?
• A 1% chance to get in, again shifting the location of the RNG?
• A puzzle that takes a handful of times to get down, then becomes faceroll?
• A full run each time with common major drops, where they become worthless?
• A level of difficulty that makes this casual content on par with ex primals or savage?

They all have their drawbacks, and you can't please everyone with any of them.

I would say all of those are better. However, my personal opinion is a puzzle would be best. That is actually a form of game and requires skill/thought to complete. It becoming something that you learn and becomes "faceroll" is no different than learning/mastering any game. I fail to see why mastering a puzzle is even in the same ballpark of poor game-design as an RNG system that decides if you get to move on or not.

You appear to have an issue with gaming in general if you're complaining about RNG. You've had horrible experiences with the Desire Sensor, haven't you?

I feel the need to respond, as you directly quoted me, but I must admit I don't understand you. I do not have an issue with RNG, nor gaming in general, but I do have any issue with poor game design. Poor game design is when things are added that address a symptom rather than a cause, or when things are added that create more problems then they solve, or when they are not designed with 'fun' in mind. I have 0 idea what you mean by Desire Sensor. Is that actually a thing, or a joke, or...?

Good thing RNG isn't applied to every single bit of content in XIV then, right?

I don't see anything wrong with the Aquapolis having RNG involved, because it's a feature based on the base concept of treasure maps.
You know, the feature where you find a map, go to the spot marked on the map, and dig up a treasure. Sometimes you'll get something nice and rare, but it'd still be common not to receive a rare reward. That's the point of treasure maps, you don't know what you'll end up with.
The Aquapolis is just like that, you don't know what you'll end up finding in there, what rewards you'll get, how many rewards you'll get. Sometimes you'll get to the 7th room, sometimes you'll only get to the 3rd room, sometimes you'll find a rare room instead of a normal one. Just like the map system.

I am fairly certain nearly everything in the game has RNG. In fact, every piece of content should have some form of RNG added. The issue isn't the existence of RNG, it is the use of it. Having RNG decide 100% whether you get to continue or not is not a fun experience. Having RNG decide whether something loads, or an event happens etc is a good use of it.

As for your talk on treasure maps, yes, I am aware what they are. I've always found them to be a waste of time and a waste of potential. We used to do maps-days in my FC which were great fun, but the actual content wasn't, unfortunately. As for the use of RNG, where sometimes you get something nice and rare, this is a decent (not amazing, but decent) use of RNG.

[StouterTaru]

If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

Except for having useful and rare rewards when you do get lucky.

However, my personal opinion is a puzzle would be best. That is actually a form of game and requires skill/thought to complete. It becoming something that you learn and becomes "faceroll" is no different than learning/mastering any game. I fail to see why mastering a puzzle is even in the same ballpark of poor game-design as an RNG system that decides if you get to move on or not.

Fun loses its fun when it's repetitive, and SE has yet to demonstrate any ability/willingness to create a puzzle that requires more than reading a 3 sentence guide.

[Nezerius]

None of which would change with some of the proposed changes, except that it would make it a more interesting way of achieving the same goal.

In fact, my proposed changes would make it more random. But it'd be interesting randomness and not pass or fail.

Or they could just keep it as it is. They never changed the map system in a major way, they have no reason to change a feature that's built on that system.

If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

The Aquapolis is designed for light parties (4 players), this means your suggested change would require them to make the wrong rooms more difficult while still allowing light parties to clear them.
Result? People will simply do them as a full party to ease the difficulty to the point where it'll be easy to clear all the rooms, even the wrong ones.
They also can't just limit the Aquapolis to 4 players, since you can do the maps with more than 4 players.

[Kaurie]

Fun loses its fun when it's repetitive, and SE has yet to demonstrate any ability/willingness to create a puzzle that requires more than reading a 3 sentence guide.

True, but it being fun for the first few times is infinitely more fun than it being never fun and incredibly frustrating every time.

However, you are definitely right, I have yet to see SE demonstrate the ability to implement a fun, dynamic and engaging puzzle. I have seen quite a few decent ones in WoW, actually. It can be done, if they put their minds to it.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

True, but it being fun for the first few times is infinitely more fun than it being never fun and incredibly frustrating every time.

However, you are definitely right, I have yet to see SE demonstrate the ability to implement a fun, dynamic and engaging puzzle. I have seen quite a few decent ones in WoW, actually. It can be done, if they put their minds to it.

Until the player base throws a fit over it. Steps of Faith. Never forget.

[Nezerius]

As for your talk on treasure maps, yes, I am aware what they are. I've always found them to be a waste of time and a waste of potential. We used to do maps-days in my FC which were great fun, but the actual content wasn't, unfortunately. As for the use of RNG, where sometimes you get something nice and rare, this is a decent (not amazing, but decent) use of RNG.

So you see them as a waste of time, yet you had fun during map-days with your FC. I'll go with the assumption that it's because the maps are a great thing for social FC events, where you're just hanging around, digging up treasure, killing some monsters. Doesn't really sound like you wasted your time, if you indirectly had fun, despite the fact that you don't consider maps fun.

As for your last sentence, are you trying to make it sound like you no longer have an issue with the RNG in the Aquapolis?
Sometimes you get something nice and rare [continuing on to the next room, getting more rewards], sometimes you don't. [wrong door, you stop getting rewards until the next time you enter]