4.0 Ideas

[Kaizer]

Most likely.

My guess is that a support styled tank ...

I... I thought this was PLD?

[Februs]

So far my speculations were like that. But since no one is saying a thing, i start to believe SAM will be a DPS, while tank role will be taken by some kind of weird class that existed only in certain FF episode.

If I remember correctly, SE has already said that Samurai won't be a tank. Yoshi-P stated in an interview that he "felt" like Samurai was more of a dps job rather than a Tank job. They haven't announced anything official about it yet, but it's most likely that Sam is being developed for dps ... unless Yoshi-P was just trying to throw everyone off, that is.

Regardless, that interview is probably why people stopped talking about Samurai as a Tank job, because most of us are assuming that Yoshi-P kiboshed the idea.

I... I thought this was PLD?

Very amusing lol. Sadly, no. Outside of PvP arenas, War's single slashing debuff provides more party support then all of Pld's support moves combined, because most of Pld's support functions aren't needed. You can never have "too much" dps, but you most definitely can have "too much" defense. If the party isn't using it, then it's not needed.

Ideally, if they do decide to do a "support styled" tank, then it would most certainly have to take its queues from War, not Pld. Otherwise no one would use it, because it wouldn't be useful.

[ADVSS]

LOL an original idea! A low dps tank that uses random cards to buff its party members like war cries, I mean coome on, it fits the tendancy of making new original jobs completely unique by having to be either or, maybe itll have a paladin stance or a warrior stance too

[Violette]

Very amusing lol. Sadly, no. Outside of PvP arenas, War's single slashing debuff provides more party support then all of Pld's support moves combined, because most of Pld's support functions aren't needed. You can never have "too much" dps, but you most definitely can have "too much" defense. If the party isn't using it, then it's not needed.

Ideally, if they do decide to do a "support styled" tank, then it would most certainly have to take its queues from War, not Pld. Otherwise no one would use it, because it wouldn't be useful.

Something something Divine Veil something spinny tornado of death.

Not to argue that war's constant 10% damage down isn't approaching broken levels of stupidly useful, but PLD's Divine Veil is an extremely useful and easy to activate defensive skill that for progression can be the difference between wipe now or wipe l8r.

[Februs]

Not to argue that war's constant 10% damage down isn't approaching broken levels of stupidly useful, but PLD's Divine Veil is an extremely useful and easy to activate defensive skill that for progression can be the difference between wipe now or wipe l8r.

Useful, sure, but there is a limit to how useful it actually is, even in progression raids.

The bottom line is that there is no fight in the entire game in which Divine Veil cannot be easily done without or replaced by adequate healing. If the healers can mitigate or heal the dmg without the use of DV, then that extra defense is unnecessary or not even used. Depending on the circumstances and how well or poorly the raid is preforming, DV can literally have no effect whatsoever on anything, regardless of when it's used. It does not negate the need for healing following raid wide damage, so healers still have to cast. Heals work off of fixed potencies, so the amount healed is the same regardless of how much dmg the shield mitigated (so long as that value is below 100%). That means that healers get no additional Dps time and no mana conservation through the use of DV, assuming they weren't already falling behind. The only time it's useful is if your party is already struggling, or if the shield is enough to save a party member from certain death.

Compare that to the Slashing Resistance Debuff granted by Storm's Eye. There is literally never a time in which this is not being used. Even if all of your dps are casters and your second tank DC's, the War who applied the buff is still using it. Applying it is an instant increase to Dps, and there is literally no limit to how much Dps a party can use. No one ever says, "good job on that dps check guys, but I think we need to slow it down a bit."

In the end we're comparing utility ceilings in which one move simply has no ceiling. There is a limit to how much defense is actually used by a party, but there is no limit to how much Dps is used by a party.

[Violette]

In the end we're comparing utility ceilings in which one move simply has no ceiling. There is a limit to how much defense is actually used by a party, but there is no limit to how much Dps is used by a party.

Actually there have been several end game fights where Damage has to be held to deal with mechanics, which resulted in conserve/burn phases, but that was back in 2.XX so it's not too much discuss.

And of course the slashing debuff is always applicable, but is DPS utility/support/defense? As I said, the 10% DAMAGE DOWN from Warrior is universally useful, but there were cases where this was not applicable. Same as the Paladin's 10% str down or the DRK/MNK's int down, they are great damage mitigation tools in fights with soft enrages (A8S, T9, T13?(kind of but not really but kind of)) and when there are SOFT enrages, there is never enough defense because a dead dps does no dps.

There were fights were without every cooldown possible (including LB3 defensively), you would wipe due to the large amount of damage incoming. Divine Veil is useful in the same way Aldoquim and Succor are useful, they prevent damage meaning it doe not have to be healed if the shielding is adequate. So while you say

Heals work off of fixed potencies, so the amount healed is the same regardless of how much dmg the shield mitigated (so long as that value is below 100%). That means that healers get no additional Dps time and no mana conservation through the use of DV, assuming they weren't already falling behind.

You're ignoring the fact that stoneskin/shields are useful precisely because they prevent healing having to be done.

You pop DV during sizzlesparks so that the MedicaII ticks will heal people up or so the second healer can dps for a little longer, not because a healer is falling behind. So that the people have that extra barrier of HP during the AoE's from Blaster or so that the debuffs can be passed safer.
You use DV so that burst damage is mitigated across the party, reducing healing load in non-constant damage phases.


It's a tool that allows you to actively pre-mitigate damage so your healers can stay ahead of both healing and dps.
If you have everything on farm then yes, take a dps composition because your group is 10000% perfect. But that's not what defense is all about. It's surviving long enough to get to that point.


It doesn't negate the healing, but if that's your train of thought can you explain why parties don't go Diurnal Ast/Whm in raid for MAXIMUM HEALS?

[ADVSS]

I was under the impression they stuck with whm/sch honestly....

[Violette]

I was under the impression they stuck with whm/sch honestly....

Sch+1, but as Februs was saying "barrier's don't stop the amount of healing that will be done", it was the logical question about why raid groups are formed like they currently are.

[Februs]

Actually there have been several end game fights where Damage has to be held to deal with mechanics, which resulted in conserve/burn phases, but that was back in 2.XX so it's not too much discuss.

If we're including old content, then yes. There are a tiny percentage of fights in which additional defense was an asset... kind of. The thing is, shields don't really help with soft enrages either. The increased Dmg output of a soft enrage will, quite literally, melt a 10% shield within seconds (even if that shield is based on the Pld's hp pool). You're not buying your team a massive amount of time here. Unless they were at the precipice of clearing the fight before they hit the soft enrage, then the shield doesn't beat additional Dps.

Further, that additional Dps can avoid the situation entirely. Again, we're comparing something that might or could be useful to something that universally is useful. Boosting Dps output to skip phases and enrage timers actively prevents that damage from happening in the first place. The proof of concept is actually in the old fights you are mentioning. Keep in mind that Pld didn't have DV back then, yet those fights were cleared just fine without it relying purely on the healers. Out of all those fights, only 2 of them (Ultima Weapon Extreme and T13) used the tank LB 3 as a valid tactic, but even those fights are not good comparisons because it didn't function the same way as DV. The Tank LB 3 is not a shield. It's a 50% mitigation. Once raid parties were adequately geared, even that was deemed unnecessary over additional Dps.

Storm's Path only makes the discrepancy between Pld and War support worse. Unless I'm mistaken, the amount of eHp provided by DV does exceed the 10% reduction in dmg given by storm's path (assuming the Pld in question has adequate hp); however, that shield only mitigates a single hit. Whereas, Storms Path can, potentially, mitigate the entire fight. Obviously we're delving into some serious "what if" territory here, but the fact is that Storm's Path has far greater potential in the off tank position than DV does because it can be kept up 100% of the time; whereas, DV can, at most, be used roughly 3 times in an 8-10 minute fight.

Divine Veil is useful in the same way Aldoquim and Succor are useful, they prevent damage meaning it does not have to be healed if the shielding is adequate ...You're ignoring the fact that stoneskin/shields are useful precisely because they prevent healing having to be done.

Here you are actually pointing out exactly why DV isn't as useful as War's party support. Firstly, you mention the utility of DV while, in the same breath, you also mention two healer abilities that can replace DV at a moments notice without cooldown restrictions. So the question becomes, why bring a Pld's DV when you could just bring a Healer who can do it better? Better yet, why not bring a healer and a War, who has universally useful party support? Your answer to this would seem to be:

You use DV so that burst damage is mitigated across the party, reducing healing load in non-constant damage phases.

Only that doesn't quite follow either. Healers can plan in advance for those phases without requiring an extra shield from the Pld. With or without that shield, a Whm is still going to cast Medica II before a raid wide AoE, for example. A Scholar is still going to Adlo/succor in the same circumstances. Regardless of whether or not the Pld uses DV, the healers are acting in the exact same way they would normally. Having DV active doesn't change a thing, unless, of course, they fell a bit behind. Instances of "non-constant" damage make no difference either, exactly because the Dmg is not constant. An additional complication can also happen if DV works against the healer's HoT. If the HoT is working on past damage while DV is active, then all is well. However, if DV is soaking the damage while the target's Hp is full, then the healer's HoT is not being used and is wasted. If DV falls off or is broken, then the HoT is doing all of the work at a reduced potency (caused by DV's shield). On the other hand, Storm's Path actively works with the HoT for it's full duration, regardless of the circumstances.

It doesn't negate the healing, but if that's your train of thought can you explain why parties don't go Diurnal Ast/Whm in raid for MAXIMUM HEALS?

To answer that, I give you the same response I did in my previous post:

There is a limit to how much defense is actually used by a party, but there is no limit to how much Dps is used by a party.

Having additional defense (even in the form of active healing) is not always required or even useful. There is a limit to how much healing is just overkill; whereas there is no overkill to Dps. You can never have too much Dps, but you can have too much healing/defense. For that reason, Pld's party support is naturally limited. War's, on the other hand, is not, because they can play both ends of the field.

[Yuni_Queen]

SE has already said that Samurai won't be a tank.

Can you please gimme link?

Anyway, if it wasn't said officially, it wasn't said at all. :P
Not the first time though.