Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Kaurie]

Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?

I am not 100% sure if this is true? I mean it varies depending on a lot of stuff. That said MNK has the highest sustained DPS according to all FFLogs. Summoner can get serious MP problems (more persistent in 2.4/2.5 than in heavensward). If you have a 10 min fight and the MNK runs out of TP and has 1900 DPS from 1-5 minutes and 300 DPS from 5-10 minutes resulting in a DPS of 1100 and the Summoner has a DPS Of 1500 for the first 5 minutes and 1500 for the 2nd 5 minutes with an average of 1500, then yes - the summoner has better sustained DPS where the Monk had stronger burst. That said, it really isn't the case. I don't play Monk, so I cannot elaborate more on that.

In terms of SCH and WHM, that is the case. WHM will run out of MP after 5 minutes of pure DPSing whereas the SCH will not (5 minutes is arbitrary here, I haven't tested exactly when WHM will run out of MP). So in a short duration, such as the 3 minute SSS, WHM will win out. In longer fights, where MP is a limiting factor, SCH wins out -> better sustained.

[winsock]

snip

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.


One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

[Rawrz]

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.


One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

That word sustained though o-o Kind of implies that as X approaches infinity, one DPS has the highest at infinite. MP is a real crutch. If you're bringing a WHM to 100% DPS, then you aren't going to be having as good of a time as someone who brought a real DPS. Selene can heal over 30% [being conservative, Ive had allot of fights where I've main healed (Total Embrace heals>Their total heals) with just Selene compared to the other healer], so the SCH really doesn't need to drop Cleric Stance to help. Burst fights like SSS really can get your mana down on a WHM, but you EASILY hit numbers higher than an SCH at that time. After those 3 minutes of spamming, youll be scraping your MP reserves even with using Assize and Shroud to their full potential, where as a Scholar will be near 100%. How you should list WHM Dps strength and SCH's DPS strength is:

WHM: Highest AOE and Single Target BURST DPS. (AOE: Aero III, Pom + Holy + ASSIZE DX.Single:Aero III, Aero II, Aero, (Assize, Fluid Aura, Pom Pick 2) Stone III
SCH: Highest Sustained and Mana Nuetral DPS. Most Capable of healing contributions while DPSing. (Super Virus, Embrace/Rouse, Possibility of consecutively weaved Lustrates/Indoms without impacting DPS)

If say during A6 when the 5 mirages sit there, and there were MASSIVE damage spikes, I would main heal that as the SCH to let the WHM push our DPS. The WHM can easily shred my DoT based damage in the amount of time her aoes allow us to kill them, because that is a WHMs strength. Front Loaded burst.

[Kaurie]

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

No, you should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under SCH and "Highest Burst DPS" under WHM. That is because scholar has the highest sustained DPS and WHM has the highest burst DPS.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.

It is mostly true, it just isn't true in very short fights. Even then, it's pretty close.

One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

I feel you are confused on the definition of sustained.

Sustained: continuing for an extended period or without interruption.

Black Mage definitely has better sustained DPS, as it has infinite MP. That said, SMN can sustain damage for quite a long time. The difference between these two is not as drastic as WHM/SCH in terms of sustained. It also matters for BLM/SMN if you are referring to AoE or single target.

[winsock]

Sustained: continuing for an extended period or without interruption.

Pointing out that 0 MP is an interruption

[Kaurie]

Pointing out that 0 MP is an interruption

That is the point, no? That a WHM has worse sustained DPS due to MP constraints?

[winsock]

That is the point, no? That a WHM has worse sustained DPS due to MP constraints?

No. I was pointing out that by your definition, factoring MP into the equation would not be considered 'sustained dps', as 0MP is an interruption.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

No. I was pointing out that by your definition, factoring MP into the equation would not be considered 'sustained dps', as 0MP is an interruption.

Well, since you like to be so literal in certain points: Running out of MP would be a limitation, rather than interruption. Imagine it being a car. A red light would be an interruption: You gotta stop for a bit and you can pick up your speed again. Run out of gas and your relative speed drops to nothing.

[Kaurie]

No. I was pointing out that by your definition, factoring MP into the equation would not be considered 'sustained dps', as 0MP is an interruption.

The definition of sustained was not my own, I used google definitions which takes it from common dictionary websites.

That said, you are not understanding the definition. Sustained means lasting for a long time or with 0 interruption,

For lasting a long time: means if a WHM does 1100 DPS In 3 minutes, but then in a 10 min fight it drops to 300 - meanwhile in the same time a SCH goes from 900 to 800, then the SCH has a higher sustained damage output.
For 0 interruption: that means if you reach an interruption then it is no longer sustained. Therefore, hitting 0 MP halts the sustained status.

I am not really sure why this is a hard concept to grasp.