Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Ghishlain]

-Snip-

I like your input, thank you for that. I do agree with the vast majority of what you said.

I'd like to highlight a point based on your text though - Healer DPS is very dynamic in nature. It's dependent on the fight and the healer's comfort level, the comfort and capability of your healing partner, the division of healing responsibility, the tanks and DPS performance, and just how the mechanics of the overall fight unfold.

While we can say "Yes, WHM has the higher DPS potential than SCH" as per S-E's SSS number, in practice this may not actually happens for a myriad of reasons ranging from "Well, the WHM ate that mechanic and died" to "The SCH provides better long term DPS due to how the kit is structured". Likewise, the opposite could be true because "Well, the SCH ate that mechanic and died" to "The WHM is providing excellent DPS in that 90s window we have to kill Hummelfaust".

I personally think because of the way the healing meta is right now, it affords SCH more DPS up time because "it's expected" (thus going back to the 65-35 and 50-50 healing responsibility comparison posted). If the focus were to shift back to equal healing and DPS responsibilities, would the SCH still be ahead? I honestly can't say what the answer to this question is but would argue the DPS contribution of WHM and SCH would be more even and the type of fight they're participating in and the group composition would determine which one of them would be ahead more often then naught.

And just to add to the previous paragraph, SCH DPS contribution is overall higher because of the way the healer Meta actually is and I'm pretty certain most people won't dispute that.

However, attempting to shoehorn a definition of sustained DPS based on factors X, Y, and Z which can be countered by factors A, B, and C probably isn't doing anyone in the discussion any help at this point and probably detracted any would-be-readers (if they're still reading) of any substance at this point in time. And yes, I'm guilty of letting this discussion drag out for as long as it has as well so I think I'm just going to leave it at that now.

*Poofs like a faux-Ninja*

[Gameplayzero]

The reason WHM doesn't dps has nothing to do with Mana.
It has to do with the support that WHM can give the raid in Cleric Stance - read: none at all.

i'm confused? What does the scholar offer that whm can't (besides fairy) in cleric stance? You get eye for an eye and virus still (which is the extent of scholars utility I'm pretty sure without fairy). Yes I know scholar gets the traits to make it better, but still. I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason. Generally people are saying whm has no utility even without cleric anyways. The fairy does a lot so i'm not dismissing it, but I don't agree with your logic. If scholar had to suddenly worry about MP I think they would be in the same situation as WHM not dpsing full time as off healer and being conservative.

I'm gonna beat a dead horse here, but like most people said (and as you've said), i'm fairly certain its more to do with whm just being the better solo healer "and" mp as well. You are kind of contradicting your post by saying healer mp being super low is a problem, yet saying at the end thats not why WHM doesn't full time dps. Something whm's and healer in this forum and elsewhere are saying why its a problem. Maybe i'm misunderstanding you.

[Violette]

I'm gonna beat a dead horse here, but like most people said (and as you've said), i'm fairly certain its more to do with whm just being the better solo healer "and" mp as well. You are kind of contradicting your post by saying healer mp being super low is a problem, yet saying at the end thats not why WHM doesn't full time dps. Something whm's and healer in this forum and elsewhere are saying why its a problem. Maybe i'm misunderstanding you.

Picture this:
You have to meet X accuracy to hit with MOST attacks. In order to hit this accuracy, healers have to invest all their stats into accuracy, instead of more mp/ more powerful heals. Heals will hit at 0 accuracy.

Healer A's attacks all must meet this accuracy. Healer B has several attacks that skip this accuracy and always hit.

Which healer do you want to attack mostly and which healer do you want to heal mostly?

[Gameplayzero]

Picture this:
You have to meet X accuracy to hit with MOST attacks. In order to hit this accuracy, healers have to invest all their stats into accuracy, instead of more mp/ more powerful heals. Heals will hit at 0 accuracy.

Healer A's attacks all must meet this accuracy. Healer B has several attacks that skip this accuracy and always hit.

Which healer do you want to attack mostly and which healer do you want to heal mostly?

I just assumed we were ignoring accuracy all together since scholars have been doing what they've been doing before heavensward, but yes you are right. Though accuracy reqs were still a thing back then too. What you said is something thats been ignored in the argument thats a pretty big factor too. Nothing worse than missing as a WHM.

especially holy in dungeons....

[CBellz]

i'm confused? What does the scholar offer that whm can't (besides fairy) in cleric stance?

Off the top of my head:

virus, e4e, sacred soil, either fey wind/fey caress/silent dusk or fey illumination/fey covenant/whispering dawn on top of embrace every 3s. That's a lot of potential utility and eHP restored without leaving cleric.

[Gameplayzero]

Off the top of my head:

virus, e4e, sacred soil, either fey wind/fey caress/silent dusk or fey illumination/fey covenant/whispering dawn on top of embrace every 3s. That's a lot of potential utility and eHP restored without leaving cleric.

i've already mentioned the use of "no fairy heals" in that post you quoted (also made note of those skills you already said below that sentence, but jack already covered that).

Though I did forget sacred soil. Another important skill not brought up. Thank you.

[Llynd]

And yet, I'm sure that mana is a real problem for whm to dps. And yes, the fact that sch dps mainly depends on dots offers a better chance to maintain dps even when switching off cleric stance. ( and also that because of the fairy and the dmg reduction, we can help AND keeping dp, what whm cannot do.)

[winsock]

You should probably define what you consider are "proper" variables to measure this then, since you seem to have issue with how everyone else is defining "sustained DPS".

For clarity:
If a SCH and WHM were both in identical scenarios and SCH left with a higher average, it had more sustained DPS for that scenario.
^ many things could have contrributed to that result:
* length of fight caused MP issue for WHM
* WHM mobility caused issues
* SCH flexibility improved it's dps.
* etc

However, in a generic comparison there is not a specific scenario, which is where the problem lies. No one can set a specific value for these things because they will change depending on the content / party / RNG / etc. While it is appropriate to mention these factors and the job's susceptibility to them so that players may come to a conclusion for their use case, it's not appropriate to assign that use case yourself and change other metrics based on those arbitrarily assigned figures.

With that being said, you're technically right in your definition of "sustained DPS" but to be perfectly frank, I'm pretty certain most people reading this are getting very annoyed at your rigid and literal interpretation of the term too.

You're assuming quite a bit here, and in your next statement as well. I had assumed you were just one of those people who needed to get the last word, so I didn't reply to your last response. I'm not certain what you're expecting to achieve. You're continuing our discussion by telling me I'm right for a second time, but now challenge how my posts makes you feel? You have no obligation to read my posts and I let you have the last word, so there should be any 'rebuttal' motivation. If you are feeling annoyed and not finding the discussion interesting you should have a discussion with someone else. I wont take it personally. Otherwise, I'm down the more ffxiv discussions about the differences between healers!

Most healers understand the difference DPS kits each healer can bring and realize which kit is more optimal for which situation.

This does not apply to this thread. This thread was started because another player wanted to know the differences

[winsock]

Well, since you like to be so literal in certain points: Running out of MP would be a limitation, rather than interruption. Imagine it being a car. A red light would be an interruption: You gotta stop for a bit and you can pick up your speed again. Run out of gas and your relative speed drops to nothing.

While MP is a limitation, in order to make the point you\\'re trying to make you need to prove that 0MP does not fit the definition of interruption.

I did a quick Google search for you to get a definition:
"the action of interrupting or being interrupted"

That definition is pretty unrevealing... So defining "interrupt" from a Google search:
"stop the continuous progress of (an activity or process)"

There is not a time constraint. In your car example, running out of gas is also an interruption.

I might mention as well that MP regenerates naturally, so if the time component matters to you it would also fit the description of being "constantly interrupted" for a time.

[Fricca]

I agree with everything you said, thus I only pointed out the lack of of Benediction, Cure III, and Assize and DoTs dpswise.

Whm has stronger cure potency, and longer, HoTs.
Regen: HoT for 150 potency, 21 secs vs Aspected Benefic: Instant heals for 190 potency plus HoT for 140 potency, 18 secs. And so on.