Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

[Firon]

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

[Physic]

TY for bringing up the old posts Noctis. I had thought they used "incurring" before in previous update notes to mean that you are on an enemy's hate list, so I think you are probably right about the MP recovery changes.

I really had no issue either way if the MP recovery rate increased quickly enough.

Like was brought up before, a strict MP recovery system would help out alchemists once they get revamped and probably get more tiers of ethers.

i would hope they wouldnt be simple ether machines. Annnnd no one really wants ether to be a way of life, unless its very cheap, building regular leveling mechanics with ethers in mind is a bad idea.

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

[Physic]

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

makes a difference for when you have to run a decent distance, and when your doing fairly easy stuff. Its small but it adds up, especially for melee who only use mp once in awhile. Stopping already sucks, having to stop moving more therefor sucks more.

[NoctisUmbra]

The new rate at which you regenerate HP/MP when standing still is the most significant factor here. Something we'll know only after the patch.

[Estellios]

i would hope they wouldnt be simple ether machines. Annnnd no one really wants ether to be a way of life, unless its very cheap, building regular leveling mechanics with ethers in mind is a bad idea.

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

Well I figured they would be nice to become somewhat necessities in long fights like Yagudo drinks in FF11 but be great to have on hand just in case of emergencies. They also were planning to allow you to put items on the action bar so there would be easy access. I'm personally hoping potions see use in emergencies too, but they would have to be balanced.

Status potions atm are really damn useful but we don't have too many opportunities to use them effectively.

[Jinko]

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

They said they plan to allow us to add macros and items to the action bar eventually.

edit: Beaten

[Ichi]

Can I just ask was it such a big crime to partially regen while doing another task in this game like travelling, closing the distance to another enemy, or trying to get back some MP during a boss fight while doing nothing but casting cure 2?

Did we have to rewind the clock on all the progress this genre has made since it was nothing but a timesink designed to keep people paying a monthly fee as long as possible?

Is it really necessary for me to stop everything, stand perfectly still, and do nothing for 30 seconds to a minute every 3 or 4 fights while soloing?

Also I'm aware that there is another thread with somebody who thinks it's a great idea to rewind the clock back to 2002 and add an animation to the stated change, but I don't support that topic.

Why should we stand still in this game when we can go play another game that will regen us to full after standing still for 20 seconds every 10 minutes or so?

You make it sound like your only criteria for playing a game is how the mp regen works. Furthermore you make it sound like that's everyone's opinion. >.>

[Neptune]

You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers
Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

It's true that people were doing runs with 5 healers by default right after Darkhold hit the street. If you want to dispute that we can go digging around until we can prove it. Anyway, you seem to still be not getting past the idea that "if it can be done with less healers Neptune's point is invalid". At this point in the discussion I'm wondering if you even know what point I was trying to make when we started this discussion.

Reading into your posts, you seem to be saying that it's not the dev team's fault that players got jacked by the rise in MP costs. You are positing that it's a bunch of bad player's fault by not doing MP management, being willing to challenge themselves, etc. I think I already demonstrated that this is only partly true:

DEV TEAM => GAME DESIGN => COMMUNITY => PLAYERS

You haven't gotten past the level of community in your thinking. You need to go up a level to game design and look at it from there. Your argument is true that it had an affect on players, but it is not the whole truth.

There is an EASY solution.

Mana regen whilst stationary - 100% (+10 for every 10 seconds)
Mana regen out of battle (whilst moving) - 80%
Mana regen during battle - 5%

I know, why things have to be black and white with this team I'll never know. Like the emote list being banished from the gamepad - huh?? Can it not be a config option?

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

I just want to point out Renshi that the discussion of battle strategy is about a sub point in this thread, not a main topic of discussion. These strategies are all old news. Here is a diagram of what happened in this thread:

Objection to change in regen rates
-Argument against objecting to patch notes by using MP costs as an example
--Discussion of MP costs on strategy to support or refute it's validity to refute using MP costs as an example of what happens when you "adapt" to patch notes or object to the changes

Yes thats true, SE have always preferred that players fix their lack of game design, Ninja in FF11 for example.

lol. This made me laugh so hard earlier.

Paople ask SE to give alchemists a more relevant role in the economy and then refuse to even think about the possibility to buy Ethers for normal party play.

To me ethers shouldn't go beyond an emergency situation. Like when you are out of MP and have to cast one more cure3 or Rebirth. Needing to go through stacks of ethers per hour isn't my idea of a good use of ethers.

I'm sure it will make sense once we try it out.

Why drink the kool-aid? It's not patch day so why not discuss the patch notes? If you really can analyze this situation and explain how it will "make sense" please share with me your awe-inspiring vision of standing still between battles.

Completely agree with this.
Couldn't stand the fact that my old LS weren't even willing to try out new strategies and instead just decided to go with what other people showed worked.

I'm glad it's your old ls now.

Unlikely. If featherfoot gave more than maybe 20-30　MP, it would be a mage exclusive skill. It's only intended to cover the use of the two advanced guild attacks, which cost 10 and 20 MP, respectively. LOL @ Featherfoot being the new "refresh".

lol, this made me laugh too. I don't have Pugilist ranked and don't really care to, but if it really is a good ability to have I'll go get it. That doesn't stop it from being a retarded proposition for being a good mage.

After reading your responses Neptune I determined the best course of action in this case would be to explain in greater detail how the current enmity system works as well as previous uses of the term "incurring enmity" by SE to reach a conclusion found in evidence of how regen will work after 1.19.

Enmity System

A valuable member of the FFXIV community did some extensive testing on the enmity system introduced in patch 1.18. Before I get into a simple explanation, I encourage you to peruse the following two links:

Explanation of Testing Procedure

Chart of Enmity Values

When a party is engaged in battle, each party member has a numerical enmity value equivalent to 0+ per claimed enemy. Every 1 point of damage done directly results in 1 point of enmity gained. Any 1 point of HP healed directly results in 0.75 points of enmity gained. Furthermore, other non-violent skills have static values of enmity gain. Traits such as Intimidate and Out of Sight provide +10% and -10% to all enmity gains respectively.

Essentially, a player's enmity is described most accurately as a numeric value that increases through the actions of that player. Further testing also shows that enmity neither gradually decreases over time, nor gradually increases over time.

Given that information, it is quite easy to see the difference between incurring enmity and having incured enmity:

• By performing an action that grants enmity to the user, one is incurring enmity.
• By remaining still despite having performed action earlier in the engagement, one has incurred enmity, however their enmity value has not since changed.

With a very straightforward, cumulative enmity system such as this it is not so difficult to imagine an HP/MP regen system that kicks into effect after a certain period of time of having a constant enmity value, and stops once a player's enmity value increases. Such a system would allow for a mage casting in passive mode to constantly be regenerating HP and MP by waiting between casts.

Previous Uses of the Term Incurring Enmity





The bolded areas in the above quotes include the term incurring emity being used in the same tense.

In the case of the skill, Stealth, it is quite clear that incurring enmity is referring to getting aggro. If you already have the attention of a mob you cannot activate Stealth. With what we know about the enmity system, gaining aggro from a mob does not give you any numerical enmity. If another player was to come by and do exactly 1 damage on the enemy that has aggroed you, they would gain the enemy's attention and have hate on themselves henceforth.

This is important, because it points out that one can have an enmity value of 0, yet be in a state of incurring enmity.

The same conclusion can be reached by the information given by the information pertaining to the Chocobo Whistle.

With that manner of a definition, things get even more interesting. This implies that incurring enmity isn't necessarily based directly on your numerical enmity value, but rather the state of having the enemy's attention. When applied to the description of the changes to how one regenerates HP/MP it can be concluded that HP/MP regen only does not occur when the mage in a passive stance has a blinking red icon (has the mob's attention/hate), provided they are not at that point using an action.



Furthermore, provided how performing an action is already explicitly given as something that resets HP/MP regen (note the use of reset instead of cease/stop) it would be redundant to suggest they mean to say gaining points of enmity will reset your regen value. Therefore, personally I am leaning towards HP/MP regen being active at all times between actions by a mage in passive mode so long as the mage is not blinking red.

I hope with that wall of text I was able to explain my reasoning effectively, and at least allow you to see the viable probability that mages very well may be regenerating MP quite often during party battle content.

Why thank you for your generous reply. I didn't know you were thinking that critically about the enmity system, and I think you made a few oversights which led me to think that.

I should point out that this discussion at this point is just debating the finer points of speculation which will be resolved on patch day.

-You said that getting attacked adds 0 enmity. If you look over Kaeko's testing he didn't test for that. He cast Stoneskin to specifically exclude that value, whatever it is, from showing up in his tests. With that numerical value in mind for the duration of the encounter, I think it's easier to understand the distinction the patch notes make between having no enmity and incurring enmity.
-The patch notes don't make a distinction between incurring enmity and incurred enmity: you are the one making that distinction.
-Your central point that one could be aggroed and have 0 enmity can only be reasonably thought of in one situation: that you have been aggroed and have Stoneskin up and haven't yet taken damage. What kind of a scenario is that to base an argument for useful HP/MP regeneration off of?
-It makes sense that the patch notes say reset and not stop because it's referring to the rate per second of regen.

That is why I think, even though you have explained your thoughts in detail, you are still reaching very far to think there will be in battle regen based on reading the patch notes.

I think the patch notes mention being engaged in battle because you could be idle when your party engages an enemy and still regen until you take action. Occam's Razor. But we'll see soon.

[Neptune]

I vote Neptune to replace Yoshi-P. Dead serious.

I'm flattered, but I think Yoshi-P is a good dude. I wish he'd take more of a leap of creativity instead of resting on the past. At least he set these boards up so we could even have the opportunity to make our topic and try to get his attention so we can say.. Yoshi-P! What the hell!

Also your blog looks interesting, I will check it out.

Lol another Neptune post. I guess it's about that time again, completely blowing things out of proportion. We'd only be sending the MMO genre back if we used the same tired bullshit every other MMO does which is just MP regen = more potions. Why bother creating an MP regen mechanic when you can just drink potions?! I mean seriously, people wanted casting in passive mode. The dev team is giving it to them but balancing it. Cry more, learn to adapt or quit please.

Haha man I could go on and on about this patch. It's great in some ways and then there's stuff like this regen. I just don't get it. One thing at a time though.

I'm not sure where you are going with potions. Are you saying people who take damage should drink potions instead of getting cured? If so I will gladly jump on board with that. I think that leads to a lot more critical thinking during battles.. that is the way of Demon's Souls.

As to your comment about passive mode, I think you don't get why people asked for that. It had nothing to do with regen, it was about taking action without the delay caused by entering active mode. People started speculating that it would let you cast with regen. I never believed that since the had tuned Darkhold so hard to higher Cure costs, and that's why it's consistent with Darkhold that there is no combat regen at all. -And why the patch notes even mention enmity playing a factor in passive mode.

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

That is funny, and that's also what makes it even retardeder that it's taken out of the game. It's like you are already down in the dirt does the dev team really need to come along and kick you in your face?

The new rate at which you regenerate HP/MP when standing still is the most significant factor here. Something we'll know only after the patch.

The only scenario where this would be a factor is if your HP/MP is instantly restored after standing still for 1 second. Other than that it would not be worth it to STOP IN ONE PLACE instead of moving ahead.

You make it sound like your only criteria for playing a game is how the mp regen works. Furthermore you make it sound like that's everyone's opinion. >.>

It's not my only criteria. I like this game a lot but if these stupid decisions pile up too high I may call it a day.

[MeowyWowie]

To me ethers shouldn't go beyond an emergency situation. Like when you are out of MP and have to cast one more cure3 or Rebirth. Needing to go through stacks of ethers per hour isn't my idea of a good use of ethers.

I'm not sure where you are going with potions. Are you saying people who take damage should drink potions instead of getting cured? If so I will gladly jump on board with that. I think that leads to a lot more critical thinking during battles.. that is the way of Demon's Souls.

Wait, what?

Anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? lol