So anyone else tired of grinding tomes weekly for gear?

[Kaurie]

That's great that that's your issue. But you made a claim that



And someone replied saying they have fun capping by doing PvP.

You then said And my point is that they are the exact same thing and people find capping tomestones fun because they actually enjoy doing level 60 content in this game. I'm not trying to discuss lack of effort, static time constraints, weekly caps, predictability of tomestones make gear dull and not a rewarding experience.

The issue I was replying to was "Tomestone capping is fun or not?". I think it's fun because I enjoy level 60 content and tomestones are a direct result for running level 60 content.

Again they are not the same thing, one just has the same side effect. You enjoy X and you get Y for doing X doesn't mean you enjoy Y. It is merely a happy side effect.

The reason why this is an important difference is that everyone arguing against tomestones is not suggesting that PvP / Dungeons etc should not be rewarding, it's how the reward is presented and delivered that is not fun.

In this sense, they find the content fun of the game, they do not find the delivery of tomestones fun (or maybe they do, but that's a separate question/statement). I acknowledge that they have no issues with tomestones and it works for them, because they enjoy the content. The issue is that they are not addressing the concerns of this thread, because they are discussing something different. They are discussing a symptom rather than the problem. The symptom is fine, the problem is not.

This this this. You can beat around the bush, but if you enjoy doing ANYTHING that gives you tomestones, then by default you enjoy getting tomestones.

There are many things in the game that give you tomestones. If you don't like any of them, then why even bother playing?

Rewarded for your choice of what you find fun. That's a good deal.

Again this is false. The issue is not being able to cap tomestones. i've never had a problem capping tomestones. The issue is that the gear is only delivered by tomestones, so obtaining gear is not a rewarding experience. It's just handed to you at a fixed rate for playing the game. There is no effort involved, no sense of completion or satisfaction.


Personally, I'd rather see all tomestones not have a weekly cap, the ilvl lowered on them to 220 for Lore. Then have Midas NM be 230 and Midas Savage be 240 - where I feel like I am actually progressing by doing the easiest content first, then harder, then harder. Rather than do the middle content first, then do the easiest content available for weeks until I am able to go into the hard content. It's a very messed up system of 'progression'. Instead of moving vertically, I feel rather zigzagged.

Alternatively, I'd just prefer to see more sources for gear - dungeon drops etc.

[Jamein]

Terrible examples. Steps of Faith was gating access to HW, which everyone had to pay for. There was a real risk of them losing subscribers for that.

Hardly, you stated they don't listen to the forums, and they clearly do at times. Steps of faith caused a massive amount of whine threads. Regardless of what it gates it was a simple fight that got nerfed due to stupid complaints from people refusing to actually get better at the game.

Raid difficulty, same thing. If it's too difficult it drives the end game raiders who bash themselves against it to no avail insane, fatiguing them of the game.

The game panders to the more casual player, which is fine but the calls for nerfs come from those people who REFUSE to believe they are at fault. I could go into a whole other debate about this with regards to parsers and the playerbase but I've done that argument to death way back when during SCOB and FCOB. All I will say is the people who ask for the nerfs on the forums, are generally the same people who believe pulling 600 DPS in 220 gear is acceptable and wonder why they can't clear content and scream about it's their game they play it how they want, in an MMO where you are meant to group and play with others. The last time a nerf was justified was T5 twisters because only ONE group managed to clear that before the nerf/bug fix if thats what they wanna call it. Take a look at T7, it got destroyed and for what? It already had echo, there was no reason to nerf it into the ground people were clearing it pre echo, but when people overgeared it they STILL cried about it and even with echo, and now you have an empty shell of a once great fight. This however is another argument for another day.

But tomestones? Tomestones are what you get automatically by playing the game, doing what you pay to do. You don't have to go out of your way to get tomestones. If you enjoy playing combat content in the game, you will get tomestones for combat content.

Again, missing the point, while the topic is about tomestones, the main point is that the general formula has not changed AT ALL since 2.0. Its just a rename/reskin of everything.

If it was as disastrous as people are saying, it would have been changed by now. Instead, it's been around for years. There has been no mass loss of subscribers to that.

We only have one set of statistics to go off last I checked, leaked from a SE shareholders report as of January 2015 (could be wrong on the date its been a while since i saw this?), I'll stand corrected if there was something more substantial released later on (registered accounts does not count). Yoshi P has even said they are looking for battle content developers but cannot find them which is why the formula is how it is. Also, the fact that it's been around for years, is the point we are making. Its getting old now, we want something new.

So instead of whining about it on the forums and continuing to subscribe despite crying bloody murder, play, and cap, the people whining should speak with what companies listen to most: their money. Otherwise, SE has no good reason at all to change a tried, tested method of holding onto the majority of subscribers.

Ah yes of course, trying to voice opinions on the current state of the game is bad we should never do that, lets all sit quiet and hope a game doesn't die, rather than say hey a lot of us are absolutely bored.
Retarded.

For me personally, I have hit them in the wallet, I didn't buy into HW right away because I saw the way the game was heading, friends wanted me to come and join the static for Alex savage a few months after HW release, I subbed, cleared some stuff and got bored and quit again in November last year. Then I resubbed on friday with some other players to take a look at this patch, still the same. I probably won't last more than a month and 3 of those other players already noped out after the weekend.

Here's to hoping the next expansion provides something different, otherwise I won't even bother trying again like so many others in the same position as me.

[MoonPhaseAlpha]

This game tends to be a lot of rinse and repeat, sadly. It gets monotonous real quick.

[Moqi]

I have not subscribed to the game in months. If I get HW, it will be when the new expansion comes out and I can play the game without lockouts.

[Adire]

Hardly, you stated they don't listen to the forums, and they clearly do at times. Steps of faith caused a massive amount of whine threads. Regardless of what it gates it was a simple fight that got nerfed due to stupid complaints from people refusing to actually get better at the game.

Somewhat correct. But, there's a huge difference you're seemingly missing despite me explaining it. Steps of Faith gated HW. People paid for HW. People were not able to get to HW despite paying for it. This would obviously cause disastrous results if it had been allowed to continue. Tomestones have not caused disastrous results. Big difference.

Most of what they listen to on the forums are constructive feedback and positive suggestions for things to add to the game as well, or when they're at risk of losing subscribers due to something. The majority of the posts are not that in this topic, and considering how long we've had the tomestone cycle, SE must not feel a pressing financial need to change things. That's something that whining on the forums won't change.

Again, missing the point, while the topic is about tomestones, the main point is that the general formula has not changed AT ALL since 2.0. Its just a rename/reskin of everything.

I'm not missing any points. I completely agree with you. It is a rename/reskin. But where I disagree with you is that I believe it's fine as is, because SE is doing well with the current model.

We only have one set of statistics to go off last I checked, leaked from a SE shareholders report as of January 2015 (could be wrong on the date its been a while since i saw this?), I'll stand corrected if there was something more substantial released later on (registered accounts does not count). Yoshi P has even said they are looking for battle content developers but cannot find them which is why the formula is how it is. Also, the fact that it's been around for years, is the point we are making. Its getting old now, we want something new.

"We" being very likely the vocal minority on the forums? Until given a reason to believe otherwise (and judging by how active Balmung is lately, though admittedly it might be an inaccurate observation), we have every reason to believe things are continuing as normal, i.e. no mass exodus because of tomestones.

Ah yes of course, trying to voice opinions is bad we should never do that, lets all sit quiet and hope a game doesn't die, rather than say hey we might like this, or how about trying this.
Retarded.

Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.

While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

[ANG3L2701]

People have mentioned FFXI and the content available in it as an example, and they are exactly right. With each Expansion, FFXI brought far more variety in terms of unique systems than XIV has even come close to providing.

Agreed 100% on that too!

I mean why trying to fix something that isn't broke to start with?
FFXI was far from perfect but the variety of stuff to do with friends on your linkshell (aka FC) was amazing and the felt of reward after you accomplish something was oustanding...
I feel SE started all good with ARR because they cared about costumers coming back and stay for good... now that they accomplish that objective I feel they got lazy with HW rehashing old content with new skin and just tag it as a "Hard" mode with new patch...
I don't know when the new expansion will come but if it will come out until 2017-18 and if they will expand game structure with it but honestly I'm not sure if I can keep waiting until that...

[FabricioRF]

I wouldn't mind the grind, if the dungeons weren't so boring. They provide no challenge at all, esp as DPS that heals, and they get easier with every patch...

Why is it even called "Expert"? lol

[Jamein]

Somewhat correct. But, there's a huge difference you're seemingly missing despite me explaining it. Steps of Faith gated HW. People paid for HW. People were not able to get to HW despite paying for it. This would obviously cause disastrous results if it had been allowed to continue. Tomestones have not caused disastrous results. Big difference.

I didn't miss it, I just don't class it as a reason. Steps of faith wasn't T9/T13, it wasn't some hard obstacle, people cleared it on the first day in the first few runs, which shows it was easily clearable, eventually people would have cleared it with or without the nerfs, it was just easier for them to cry about nerfs. It's one of my biggest gripes with the playerbase, the average player is just so...bad (for lack of a better word) but that's because content becomes easily accessible to them if they just wait, there's no reason to improve when things get nerfed/copious amounts of echo, not to mention why 90% of content is now faceroll. However, as I said before that's another argument for another day I guess.

Most of what they listen to on the forums are constructive feedback and positive suggestions for things to add to the game as well, or when they're at risk of losing subscribers due to something. The majority of the posts are not that in this topic, and considering how long we've had the tomestone cycle, SE must not feel a pressing financial need to change things. That's something that whining on the forums won't change.

Honestly, the main things I've seen taken into account from the forums are nerfs, and glamour/costmetic changes. Raiders have forever been giving suggestions on the forums and nothing has really been taken into account.
Clearly enough people are starting to get bored of the same formula, people have expressed it here, in game, and through other avenues like reddit.

I'm not missing any points. I completely agree with you. It is a rename/reskin. But where I disagree with you is that I believe it's fine as is, because SE is doing well with the current model.

We don't know that, we have no active subscriber numbers to go off. I'm not saying the game is dying, I'm just saying we have nothing to compare subscribers from pre-heavensward to post heavensward. From my personal experience a lot of players I played with have quit. However that doesn't really provide evidence for the overall state of the game.

"We" being very likely the vocal minority on the forums? Until given a reason to believe otherwise (and judging by how active Balmung is lately, though admittedly it might be an inaccurate observation), we have every reason to believe things are continuing as normal, i.e. no mass exodus because of tomestones.

We being the playerbase, again, you have absolutely no numbers or facts to back up that the playerbase isn't dwindling. I'm not even saying it is, the game far from dying but we just don't know the numbers right now so I can't use that as an argument and neither can you. We don't know the reason for keeping the formula the same, maybe it is the numbers, or maybe it is the battle developer position that yoshi P said he can't seem to fill.

Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.
While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

Like I said, my opinion is backed up by my wallet, I haven't maintained an active sub for more than a 2 months since a month before heavensward release. I only just resubbed and I won't be here after that month is gone. So then there are players who just don't post on the forums, the majority of them they will just silently leave. You don't wait for the mass exodus to happen, that is bad business. If you want to stay ahead, especially in a market as fickle as the MMO one you have to find ways to retain your playerbase before they get bored of the game, not after they decide to quit.

People like me are willing to resub to try out new things, to see if there are improvements, not everyone will though, once they go they move on. However even I am near my last attempt with this game and so are most of the people I play with, and for every person like me who does post on the forums to state why they are getting bored with the game, there are plenty of people who will leave without saying a word.

It might be working for them right now but eventually more and more people will get bored of it, and they should do something about that before they see a loss of subs, not after.

There's only so long you're gonna get by on re-skinned/recycled content.

[Kallera]

This game tends to be a lot of rinse and repeat, sadly. It gets monotonous real quick.

The devious part of it is that it doesn't look like that when you start out, having so much to catch up on.

And perhaps the raiding is just simply unpopular. They try so many hoops just to get people to do easy raids, and as someone that does the easy raids, I'm glad for that. But the notion that recovering from a fight is just intolerable is just stupid and frustrating. After so much of that for so long with this method of progression, it is no surprise that I have seen people just go do the more casual content rather than kill themselves over and over. Do I think the raid finder will help? Maybe, but I'm not convinced it won't break something else.

[Kaurie]

Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.


While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

There are generally two types of people when it comes to this. One type of person will be loud and voice their concern, one type of person will unsub quietly. (I guess there is likely a mix, but generally speaking..). Do not doubt that both of these types of players exist in FFXIV. New players are coming, old players are leaving constantly. FFXIV has over 5 million registered accounts and an estimated ~700k subscribers. WoW has over 100 million registered accounts and just over 5 million subscribers. These games get a lot of turn-over in playerbase.

It's incredibly important for a business to try and do their best to retain their players/customers. They can either a. let people leave without saying a word and just magically guess what they didn't like. "Hmm, they quit at level X on Job Y, it must have been N for why they quit." However, that's just educated guesswork, or b. look upon the forums and see what feedback is being given, so that they have an idea of why players are dissatisfied.

In other words, if they development/publishing team is doing what you are suggesting, "ah who cares what they are saying on the forums, they're still paying." then they are not very business savvy.