Cleric stance needs change just for melding sake as healer

[tjw]

How this topic feels like at this point:



Sadly, this really isn't up to us. SE does give us the freedom (I use this word very tentatively, as in some ways, we can say that SE has restricted healeres) to choose between stats. I have a feeling SE themselves aren't sure of how to place accuracy on healers, considering that 2.X cycle had gear with accuracy (that didn't cut into our main healer secondary stats, mind you), then abolished, and now it seems they're experimenting with materia melding (which does inadvertly cut into smaller amounts of healer-centric secondary stats). Honestly, it's up to SE. Whatever they decide, we go with the flow.

[Ghishlain]

How this topic feels like at this point:



Sadly, this really isn't up to us. SE does give us the freedom (I use this word very tentatively, as in some ways, we can say that SE has restricted healeres) to choose between stats. I have a feeling SE themselves aren't sure of how to place accuracy on healers, considering that 2.X cycle had gear with accuracy (that didn't cut into our main healer secondary stats, mind you), then abolished, and now it seems they're experimenting with materia melding (which does inadvertly cut into smaller amounts of healer-centric secondary stats). Honestly, it's up to SE. Whatever they decide, we go with the flow.

It's a nice summation to be frank, lol.

To be honest and from an objective standpoint, I kinda feel like Riceisnice and Winsock are agreeing with the facts presented but their interpretation comes out in wildly different angles which is leading to this divide.

I just interjected when I did because I disagree with the opinion that healers are who have to decide whether to meld Accuracy or SpS/Det/Crit are at a disadvantage compared to DPS and tanks who only have one-role decisions with slightly different impacts on their primary role depending on the melds they focus on.

I will admit, I did kinda miss the point in my previous wall of text but now that I've had time to sleep on it, I'm pretty much just going to say outright what I feel about that tangent I threw out there:

• A healer being able to choose if they can increase their healing performance or their damage performance puts them at an advantage over a DPS or tank who can only choose to increase their DPS or tank performance. More Choice = Better
• Melding Accuracy will hurt a healer's healing potential. This is an active choice for the players who decide to go this route because it allows them to fulfill duties that are normally outside their role. Being diverse tends to have a sacrifice in some other category. *Points to classic Red Mage in Final Fantasy history* Healer's who decide to partake in this optional role understand this. They understand they can't have their cake and eat it too.
• DPS and tanks do not have this option to play outside their role. Therefore they have their cake but they can't actually eat it. (Tanks used to have some semblance of this when the whole VIT vs STR was going on)
• There's a fundamental difference between coercion versus freedom that seems to get lost in the dialogue and I disagree with the underlying sentiment that healer's are coerced into melding accuracy when they aren't. Healer's just can't have the best of both worlds.

[Sida]

[*]A healer being able to choose if they can increase their healing performance or their damage performance puts them at an advantage over a DPS or tank who can only choose to increase their DPS or tank performance. More Choice = Better

Reason why having forced to choose is considered a bad thing when no one else is that when you can choose one good choice, you are equally forced to take the bad choise. This would be awesome if healer could go just totally damage dealer, or totally healer but as we all know that is not the case expect maybe in very limited static situations.

Whatever the healer has chosen they have shot them on their leg for the other half of their job. While both, dmg and tank can benefit from their melds 100% of the time, a healer who goes all accuracy only benefits from their melds when they damage, which is not whole fight. Or healer who goes with stats that benefit their healing hardly hit anything when it's their time to do damage. Also only benefitting from their choise only part of the time. Or if they meld half and half, they still only benefit o ly partially on both accounts.

That is why dmg and tanks have it better. They are not required to gimp other half of their job (since dmg don't have other half of their job, and even OT tanks benefit from dmg stats) which is the case for every healer since that role has dual expectations that require different stats. As soon as tanks start requiring wildly different stats for their dual expectation, and dmg actually get dual expectations, we can start seeing it fair that choise has to be made.

[Ghishlain]

Reason why having forced to choose is considered a bad thing when no one else is that when you can choose one good choice, you are equally forced to take the bad choise. This would be awesome if healer could go just totally damage dealer, or totally healer but as we all know that is not the case expect maybe in very limited static situations.

Whatever the healer has chosen they have shot them on their leg for the other half of their job. While both, dmg and tank can benefit from their melds 100% of the time, a healer who goes all accuracy only benefits from their melds when they damage, which is not whole fight. Or healer who goes with stats that benefit their healing hardly hit anything when it's their time to do damage. Also only benefitting from their choise only part of the time. Or if they meld half and half, they still only benefit o ly partially on both accounts.

That is why dmg and tanks have it better. They are not required to gimp other half of their job (since dmg don't have other half of their job, and even OT tanks benefit from dmg stats) which is the case for every healer since that role has dual expectations that require different stats. As soon as tanks start requiring wildly different stats for their dual expectation, and dmg actually get dual expectations, we can start seeing it fair that choise has to be made.

I will disagree with your train of thought on the premise that our expectations are different and therefore we see the melding situation differently.

Based on your post above, I'm reading your expectations as follows:

1. Healers are expected to maintain party health
2. Healers are expected to provide party DPS

Ergo, I believe you feel that because of the above expectations, melding for #1 would decrease your ability to perform #2 and vice versa.

Counter to your expectations, my expectations of a healer are as follows:

1. Healers are expected to maintain party health

Healer DPS is a luxury they can provide their party but is not expected of them to actually perform this work. My logic is based on the few times Yoshi-P has been quoted to state that healer DPS is not included in their raid tier DPS checks multiple times.

Game Watch Interview Translation - May 19th, 2015

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

And 4Gamer Interview Translation - December 29th, 2015.

Let's get right into it - we've seen many posts from readers relating to end-game content. When you go through development, how do you decide how to set the difficulty? For example, the amount of DPS required for each particular content.

Yoshida: When we make battle content, first we determine a minimum assumed item level required to clear. Then, we determine the total amount of party damage required to clear, taking a minimal amount of damage from tanks and healers into account during this calculation.

What do you mean by minimal?

Yoshida: Basically it's the damage from tank auto-attacks and the basic skill rotation used in order to maintain hate. We add this to the party damage needed. However, we often use zero in the calculation for damage required from healers. In other words, we only take into account the amount of damage necessary to perform as a tank or a healer and we don't take them into account as actively participating in attacking. For the clear assumption on DPS, we calculate the 100% value for the item level and we reduce that by 10 to 15 percent for the amount required to clear.

Based on the above and until potentially corrected at a future date, I feel the logic for my expectations are sound.

Ergo, this means my interpretation of the Materia Melding is as follows:

1. Healers can meld for healing and increase their performance in their primary (and expected) function
2. Healers can meld Accuracy and thus reducing their overall healing capacity to allow them to perform an optional role at a higher capacity

We have two different expectations and therefore two different perspectives of the Materia situation based on these perspectives.

So, at this point in time, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree because I feel your expectations about what a healer brings to the table are incorrect and I imagine you feel the same about my own.

Disclaimer: While it is true I believe healers are first and foremost there to complete their role in a party dynamic, I also do not believe that a healer that only heals or a healer that DPS until they hit 0 MP and/or let their tank die is optimal play. I encourage all healers to play optimally and that optimal play usually revolves around reducing ones idle time. Any benefit they add to the party beyond their expected role is a luxury to that party and should not actually be expected unless you're progressing through savage tier content under geared.

========

This is not me implying anything. If you need a wall of text to explain an implication, its a good indication you've interpreted something incorrectly.

I've said directly that "healers need accuracy" but am in no way trying to suggest that the game forces you into it. 'need' is not synonymous with 'force'.

Example:
I need to use the restroom
Someone forced me to use the restroom
^ very different things lol

To be honest, after I re-read my own wall of text this morning my first thought was like "Wow, you're such a damn idiot". lol. Sooooo, let me try again by discussing my stance with your other points below.

Could you elaborate on that because accuracy during the leveling process isnt really much an issue either. Why is it okay have little to no accuracy/int issues while leveling, then create the need for accuracy but not int once you've leveled?

Perhaps you can explain yourself here because I'm not quite sure what your point is about the MND/INT transposition dynamic. I will say this and reiterate my previous point regarding Cleric Stance and Accuracy.

It hasn't been directly spoken to by the Development Team but I believe that Cleric Stance was originally intended as a tool to assist healers through MSQ content. The game is littered with story and story-related battle fields that are solo with little help (it's better now in HW versus what it was like in AAR). To facilitate progression of a healer through MSQ content, they made Cleric Stance. It just happens Cleric Stance is one of the most interesting and healer-dynamic changing tools I've personally ever had the pleasure of playing with and can see why it has come to this point in the cycle (and how its spawned so many arguments and debates at the same time).

In general, it's not easy to see how much accuracy players (not just healers) have while progressing through MSQ. If I would take a guess, the dev team decided to implement a fairly low accuracy requirement overall while leveling and MSQing just so they can get around these possible roadblocks to player progression (especially new players who may not understand the important of accuracy yet).

I am on the side of giving healers an acc bonus

===
You argued, quote:
Basically, what you're implying is

Capable of only performing your Primary Function > Choice between 2 Functions
===

I am asking for clarification on how giving healers an acc bonus would in any way make healers "capabable of only performing [their] primary function".

I believed we might not be viewing this segment of the discussion in the same context, so I wanted to give you the opportunity to elaborate in an attempt to avoid making knee-jerking assumptions about your stance.

To be honest, you're probably right about the view segment. As I stated above with my comment to Sida, melding Accuracy doesn't prevent a healer from performing their primary function (I can kinda see how my comment can be interpreted in this way). Instead, melding Accuracy just lowers the amount of healing potential a healer can output.

To go back to the tank, DPS, and healer comparison, consider the following (and very arbitrary) ratios:

• Tanks get 90% of their primary role stats through their gear. The remaining 10% comes from their melds. Regardless of their melds (assuming no trash melds like SpS, INT, etc), they're melding to get the remaining 10% of their primary role stats.
• Likewise, DPS get 90% of their primary role stats through their gear. The remaining 10% comes from their melds (again, assuming no trash melds like Parry). Once again, regardless of how they meld, those melds will eventually get them the remaining 10% of their primary role stats.
• Healers on the other hand, if we use the same example, get 90% of their primary role stats through their gear. The remaining 10% they have a choice. A healer can choose to meld Accuracy and thus keep their potential healing capacity at 90% or they can choose to meld the remaining 10% with their healing. The healer makes a conscious decision at this point. If they believe they can actually continue to perform their primary role at that 90% level and contribute their non-primary role more readily, they will meld Accuracy.

The above Healer choice is something I like because it encourages healer to think and decide what they feel is optimal for themselves and the group they're participating in. To reiterate my point that I made to Sida above, I have no expectations of a healer being able to DPS. But I do expect them to be able to heal me and if they can contribute to the party DPS, even better.

Healer's have a flexibility that DPS and Tanks do not - the ability to meld Accuracy to augment their DPS.

Upon re-reading this blurb I just typed up, however, I'm still not sure where you think I stated that providing free accuracy to a healer isolates them to one role. Unless you're going back to a point where I said that I feel if they removed accuracy requirements entirely, that they would remove Cleric Stance and thus force healers to just, well heal. But I made that justification for my thoughts back at that particular comment.

I do dislike the idea of giving free accuracy bonuses to Healer's as well because that opens a door for other classes that do require accuracy to perform their role to complain. There was actually a thread fairly recently in the DPS forum asking why DPS don't get a free 5% accuracy that Tanks get while in Tank Stance. Could you imagine the outcry from tanks and DPS would have if S-E gave healer's a free nod to DPS to their hearts content? Even a small bonus to healer Accuracy could be twisted by DPS and Tanks to be "Gimmie more accuracy too, plz".

This is why I'd rather push lower accuracy requirements in casual content because~~~ *Points to below*

To be clear, can we assume 'causal content' includes expert roulette?

"1 choice > 2 choices which I vehemently disagree with."
Using your own words, you strongly/intensely disagree with this.

If you truely feel so strongly about it, why do you support changes to causal content?

I feel casual content should be a good stepping stone for healers to test the water. Healers can make an active effort to contribute DPS as they are leveling and through these dungeons. Level 60 dungeons and EX dungeons are the first real dungeons Healers get to test with a full healer's kit and I'd rather they keep the accuracy requirements low to help healer's get acclimatized to the thought of DPS with the entirety of their kit.

I realize I'm treading a fine line here too because I'm arguing for lower accuracy requirements while stating I'd rather not see free accuracy given. I do feel there is potential to turn off healers entirely from the DPS spectrum if they make the barrier of entry too high due to accuracy requirements (thus leading to healer frustration as one can already see in the forums) and though I have no problems with the current EX accuracy requirements, I can see how when 3.4 is released the accuracy requirement might hit a threshold that causes a mass exodus of healers from casual content.

Something has to be done about the current accuracy requirements in casual content but free accuracy (in my own opinion) isn't the way to go.

The reason I'm speaking specifically to casual content is because people who challenge mid tier content (EX Primals) and Savage tier content will most likely have a more acute understanding of the game mechanics and expectations and thus should not be touched.

[Sida]

<snip>

You misunderstood my post to mean my own expectations, while I was simply saying that is the expectations directed at healers. You actually got it right in your disclaimer. Healer who only heals, or healer who only dps is seen a bad by about everyone. If it was me, I'd be more than happy if the game offered most content to be such that the healer need only heal. However as of the moment, the common expectation to healers is to be able to fill in both roles, often in the same fight. However much I want to specialise in one aspect or the other it doesnt chance that in whole picture, I only benefit partially of the choise whichever it is. That in itself is not the issue. What makes this problematic is that no other role is required the same, creating the unfair environment.

Let me restate. If all roles had to make hard choises where they need to pick between stuff that gimps part of their play, then having that choise can be seen good, you can specialise. (I still wouldn't like it but that's personal taste)

When only one role is required to make hard choises that gimp part of their play, while other roles only have good option they can pick, that is what makes it bad. The choice in itself is not bad. Only healers having it is what makes it bad.

Very brief recap:
Taking I to accord people make sensible melds (and don't out gathering on battle gear or somehing)
Dmg benefits their melds 100% of time
Tanks benefit their melds 100% of time
Healer benefits their melds 30%-80% of the time, debending of the choise and playstyle and groups they end up with.

That there is the problem, and reason why people see the choise as a forced thing as it only takes from their efficiency in any way.

[Ghishlain]

You misunderstood my post to mean my own expectations, while I was simply saying that is the expectations directed at healers. You actually got it right in your disclaimer. Healer who only heals, or healer who only dps is seen a bad by about everyone. If it was me, I'd be more than happy if the game offered most content to be such that the healer need only heal. However as of the moment, the common expectation to healers is to be able to fill in both roles, often in the same fight. However much I want to specialise in one aspect or the other it doesnt chance that in whole picture, I only benefit partially of the choise whichever it is. That in itself is not the issue. What makes this problematic is that no other role is required the same, creating the unfair environment.

Let me restate. If all roles had to make hard choises where they need to pick between stuff that gimps part of their play, then having that choise can be seen good, you can specialise. (I still wouldn't like it but that's personal taste)

When only one role is required to make hard choises that gimp part of their play, while other roles only have good option they can pick, that is what makes it bad. The choice in itself is not bad. Only healers having it is what makes it bad.

Very brief recap:
Taking I to accord people make sensible melds (and don't out gathering on battle gear or somehing)
Dmg benefits their melds 100% of time
Tanks benefit their melds 100% of time
Healer benefits their melds 30%-80% of the time, debending of the choise and playstyle and groups they end up with.

That there is the problem, and reason why people see the choise as a forced thing as it only takes from their efficiency in any way.

Please do not mistake my disagreement with your arguement as misunderstanding you point. While I do disagree with you expectations and rationale, I can appreciate and respect them at the same time as its a view point is shared with a few others.

I know our views differ due to our expectations of the healer role and I still stand by the position that I believe your expectations and by extension your thoughts behind Materia selection are an incorrect view. I've already stated my argument to my thoughts above to my response to both you and Winsock, including my thoughts behind the Materia dynamic. You have done the same.

I am firm in my stance and I believe you to be the same. Hence my comment about agreeing to disagree in my previous post. I shall leave it at that.

[Kaurie]

1. Healers can meld for healing and increase their performance in their primary (and expected) function
2. Healers can meld Accuracy and thus reducing their overall healing capacity to allow them to perform an optional role at a higher capacity

Wow that is a long post heh. Anyway I wanted to respond to this part.

Point #2 is only true (in that it reduces overall healing capacity) if healing is pushed. In most situations, you will be achieving overheal of some sort.

Say for example you want to slot DET. When I last tested, 100 DET adds ~1 HP to your heals. So, let's say you meld fully for this and get 216 DET or 2.16 extra HP per heal on average.

If your tank has 25k hp and is down to 15k and your heals do 3k each, then you need to do 4 heals to fully top them off. In one situation (with melded det) you will do 4 x (3000+2.16) = 12008.64 HP and the other with accuracy you do 4x3000 = 12000 HP. In both situations, you cast the same number of heals, but in situation one your overheal is just slightly higher. The horrible scaling of DET is too low to actually provide 1 less heal as an option. In fact it would take 1389 heals before you achieve the 1 less heal function.

Say for example you slot CRIT.

The approximate crit rate formula is ((CRT-354)*0.0233)+4.9511233 with crit severity formula is ((CRT-354)*0.0002335)+1.4482348. If we slot in 216 CRIT into both then we get:
ADDED CRIT RATE = +5.03%
ADDED CRIT SEVERITY = +0.05x

Therefore, in the same situation as above, if your heals do 3k each, but now have a 5% higher chance of doing 0.05x more than previous crits then you will still likely need to do 4 heals. Here are the two options (note this is assuming a 0% crit rate when no crits are melded, due to the baseline value of having that crit chance with accuracy melded):

3 heals = 3 x (0.95 x 3000 + 0.05 x 3000 x 1.55) = 9247.5
4 heals = 4 x (0.95 x 3000 + 0.05 x 3000 x 1.55) = 12330

vs 9000 and 12000 respectively.

As you can see, while CRIT scales significantly better than DET (why would you ever slot DET materia ugh), it still isn't enough to reliably reduce the amount of heals going out, so much that "Healers can meld Accuracy and thus reducing their overall healing capacity to allow them to perform an optional role at a higher capacity".

In essence, my argument is that a healer who melds accuracy still has the same effective healing capacity as one who melds other items, while also having the ability to assist with DPS which in turns kill things faster and lowers the incoming damage to the tank.

Last I checked is you missed you didn't get the MP. Maybe it changed when astral fire/ice buffs changed but I don't think so. I'll check tonight

Been this way for a long time, I gained MP back while missing E-Drains fighting Bahamut in T13 - for example.

EDIT: it is possible I am wrong on this, but that has been my understanding. I am researching it now.
EDIT2: I can't find anything concrete online - contradicting information. I'll try to test if I can later. Let me know what you find

[Knoahl]

EDIT2: I can't find anything concrete online - contradicting information. I'll try to test if I can later. Let me know what you find

I dps often as my SCH, it doesn't grant the MP when you miss, it can be really frustrating :/

[Ghishlain]

-Snips-

Concise has never been my forte to be honest, and there are things that just can't be TLDR'd either, lol. Also, Energy Drain does indeed not restore any MP when it misses, just to answer the easy part of your post.

Your post does remind me of one thing and it's partially a reiteration of a post I made prior in the thread.

Raid DPS has an infinite ceiling. The more DPS your tanks and DPS (and healers) can do to the boss, the faster it'll die, reducing risk to the raid wiping (either to mechanics or the hard enrage). Even if a 13 minute boss can be down in 10 minutes, increasing a raids DPS will never outright hamper the raid (outside of pushing a mechanic too fast ALA Levithan EX / Ifrit EX but that's more bad battle design than naught).

However, from a healer standpoint, increasing a healer's healing capacity may not have any notable benefit to the actual fight itself. If a single healer is required to output 2,000 HPS to maintain party health in a fight, being able to output 2,500 HPS can lead to overhealing and wasted resources. Admittedly, higher upfront healing may also allow for more DPS windows too as party wounds are restored faster, etc etc.

This part of the reason why I do believe there is an optimal choice (I'm a huge proponent of Accuracy melds), but there isn't necessarily a bad choice. If your melds are doing absolutely nothing for you but your gear has enough ilvl to make up for that deficit of secondaries, then are you really under performing? *Queue philosophical discussion here*

As a tangent to the above, also take into account that "healer melds" also increase a healer's DPS potential to a lesser extent. Likewise, Accuracy melds also indirectly lowers the healing requirement of the fight because if the boss dies faster, the healer will obviously need to heal less damage overall.

The reason I bring this all up though is because healer melds aren't a simple black and white answer like it is for DPS and tanks. The effectiveness of a healer is less measurable than the other roles and on top of that certain factors outside of the healer's control also affects their ability to contribute to the party (people not performing mechanics properly, taking unnecessary damage, etc etc). While it's true healer's have to choose between healing better or DPSing better, they have a finite limit of healing requirement versus a Tank or DPS' infinite DPS ceiling. This is compounded by the fact that healer contribution is directly tied to their gear, skill, and other players they are healing - thus making no easy way to determine if there even is a right choice for healer melds (or if they even need melds at all). *Insert conversation about the Illusion of Choice here*

... nothing like talking in a giant circle and getting nothing resolved in the same post. lol.

-Snips-

I'm okay with this agreement to disagree. I can understand the point you're trying to make and I also agree what I'll probably be unable to dissuade you from that course either.

[Kaurie]

The reason I bring this all up though is because healer melds aren't a simple black and white answer like it is for DPS and tanks. The effectiveness of a healer is less measurable than the other roles and on top of that certain factors outside of the healer's control also affects their ability to contribute to the party (people not performing mechanics properly, taking unnecessary damage, etc etc). While it's true healer's have to choose between healing better or DPSing better, they have a finite limit of healing requirement versus a Tank or DPS' infinite DPS ceiling. This is compounded by the fact that healer contribution is directly tied to their gear, skill, and other players they are healing - thus making no easy way to determine if there even is a right choice for healer melds (or if they even need melds at all). *Insert conversation about the Illusion of Choice here*

Indeed, personally I hate the "Illusion of Choice" as an argument - I feel it is a buzzword used to backup the idea of removing choice all together. Personally, I see it more as the choice you as a game developer have added is poorly thought out.

In this sense, yes, there is little point to adding healing abilities when your healing is already outpacing the content (which is nearly always the case).

It's funny, I find melding healer gear to be far easier than anyone else? Healer: "Is there a materia slot on this gear? Yes: Meld accuracy." Done. Other jobs need to do things like manage their accuracy to not go over the top, maximize certain stats (spell speed or crit) but adjust and use other stats as necessary when the gear already has it.

Ultimately though, the choice in this game is severely lacking.