Gerun Oracles

[Kotemon]

Just like the Bahamut that came out of Dalamud.

Didn't Tiamat say that particular Bahamut they summoned was not the one that died during the Allagans invasion, but something entirely different (even she hoped it would be until she saw what was)? Just like how that other Dragon said that the Shiva summoned was not the original Shiva but something else created from her mind.

[Rocl]

I think, but can't be certain right now, that was pointing out that both Hraesvelgr and Tiamat have called the primal versions of their respective lovers "shades." And with the term being tossed around now to describe Nidhogg, it's relevant.

EDIT: okay, Tiamat calls Primal-Bahamut a "specter" but Hraesvelgr definitely uses "shade" for Primal-Shiva

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

I think, in this case, we can probably assume that "shade" is being used as a general descriptor and not a technical one. It seems to be used to imply that the subject is somehow lesser than the real thing. In Shiva's case, it's because she's not the real thing (when that had been the aim); in Niddhog's case, it's because he lacks his own corporeal form.

It'd be interesting to know the Japanese term in each situation, because I think we know enough about what constitutes a Primal to say that Estinien!Niddhog isn't one.

[PArcher]

I think, in this case, we can probably assume that "shade" is being used as a general descriptor and not a technical one. It seems to be used to imply that the subject is somehow lesser than the real thing. In Shiva's case, it's because she's not the real thing (when that had been the aim); in Niddhog's case, it's because he lacks his own corporeal form.

It'd be interesting to know the Japanese term in each situation, because I think we know enough about what constitutes a Primal to say that Estinien!Niddhog isn't one.

Just to piggyback this, I'm 99.999999999% sure that Nidhogg isn't a Primal (I'll just give that .000000001% because plot twists are a thing). How easy would it be for him to win the war by tempering all of Ishgard, robbing them of their freedom and being free himself to punish them without retribution? Middy also comments on how far his "son" has fallen, not a shade or spectre (or Primal) in the Singularity Reactor.

[Theodric]

-snip-

To be fair, you could say that about any Primal. They're extremely powerful and whilst they could technically go out and Temper the masses they rarely do so. Heck, they rarely seem to be allowed to even leave wherever it is they've chosen as their base. I've said this before, but 'Tempering' doesn't even come off as a threat these days. I'm still waiting for a major character like Cid to be fighting alongside the Warrior of Light one minute only to be Tempered the next and forced to be put down as a result. It'd be cruel and make for some awesome tension (as well as making Primals/Eikons feel like more than just the next big thing for the WoL to slay).

[Fenral]

I've said this before, but 'Tempering' doesn't even come off as a threat these days. I'm still waiting for a major character like Cid to be fighting alongside the Warrior of Light one minute only to be Tempered the next and forced to be put down as a result. It'd be cruel and make for some awesome tension (as well as making Primals/Eikons feel like more than just the next big thing for the WoL to slay).

Nah, by the time that happens we'll have found a way to use the Echo to undo Tempering, instead opening us up to reflect on the countless innocents put down offscreen by the Scions out of grim necessity. Only other way they'd handle it is as a way to get rid of a(nother) newly-introduced character, and that trick is even more stale.

[CyrilLucifer]

I'm not sure if we'll be able to cure it any time soon (give it an expansion or two when SE starts hurting for new plotlines), but I do expect we'll learn to shield other people. Somehow.

[Nalien]

Do we even need to protect or cure Tempering anymore? Last I checked, all the Primals joined a Linkshell and Garuda and Ifrit told everyone not to bother with that whole Tempering business... When was the last time any Primal even tried? I mean Sephirot woke up, saw a bunch of mortals and just went right for the kill, didn't even bother going "Oh, maybe I can temper these morons", yet the entire lead up to that made some huge deal about how only people with the Echo (plus whatever Kidibus has) could come help because he might - but wont - Temper others...

We should probably just learn to summon Primals ourselves and preemptively Temper everyone... Then no one else can Temper them and we can just order them to have free will... That was the logic Ifrit and Garuda worked off once, no? We were already claimed so they couldn't claim us... Oh damn, is that why Kidibus was safe from Sephirot?

[CyrilLucifer]

That Locus' lyrics really heavily imply that Alexander is capable of tempering and yet Mide just strolls in really sort of shows how much SE respects the ability to Temper. As in - not at all.

(Unukalhai probably has the same form of the Echo that Lahabrea does, that is, Ascian form. Notice he doesn't actually deny having the Echo, he just doesn't elaborate on it, either. Very much a subtle evasion.).

[Fenral]

Well, Mide was at the initial summoning of Alexander, so she should have been tempered by him then. Assuming there's any logic or consistency in how they operate, which there really isn't at this point, I guess.