3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Neuflune]

Bind also prevents turning, which is just as detrimental to non-healers since they need to be be facing their target. 12 seconds (let alone 6) is way too long for CC in something trying to be as fast paced as this. Though I also agree that it's outrageous that they left BLM and WHM's CC durations alone (especially when BLM also has a bind that's still 12 seconds)

I tried to be as concise as possible. If I need to be wordy... yes Bind prevents any kind of movement (including turning); while Sleep prevents any action (movement, using skills, everything except Purify). If they're poking one job's CC, they should poke similar CC in other jobs. Otherwise they should leave it alone and just adjust potencies/ticks if the problem was burst DPS.

[RiceisNice]

. If they're poking one job's CC, they should poke similar CC in other jobs. Otherwise they should leave it alone and just adjust potencies/ticks if the problem was burst DPS.

More or less, especially in relation to the interrupt changes, the CCs that come from a BLM/WHM is far too powerful to leave alone, espesically when the counterlay to that is either stun lock (which leaves only paladin to be the reliable one) silence (scarcely available in the game) or having two dps stay on them the entire time to push that damage threshold (where it's essentially meta defining, esp with a WHM/BLM combo). My point is that bind isn;t any less detrimental than sleep, and adjustments to CC duration is needed in general if they're doing away with their weaknesses (which are typically associated with cast times or a relatively long cooldown)

I bet, Paladins have a very overlooked burst...

Even then, a paladin really would not be solo killing anyone unless the other healer was extremely bad. They have to choose between dpsing or using a stun (that isn't their PvP skill) due to shield bash being a weaponskill. It's overlooked, but it's not anything to write home about either, unless you're a nocturnal AST.

Of course, DRK has a very short lived burst that's easily exhausted by their mana pool, on top of having very few influential skills compared to the other two tanks.

[Februs]

Even then, a paladin really would not be solo killing anyone unless the other healer was extremely bad. They have to choose between dpsing or using a stun (that isn't their PvP skill) due to shield bash being a weaponskill. It's overlooked, but it's not anything to write home about either, unless you're a nocturnal AST. Of course, DRK has a very short lived burst that's easily exhausted by their mana pool, on top of having very few influential skills compared to the other two tanks.

Not necessarily. Iagainsti is correct that Pld burst is quite overlooked. I solo other players as Pld all the time. It's very doable provided you have your full burst available.

The problem is that Pld's have to actively choose if using their full burst is worth it, because several of the abilities used in their full burst rotation have double utility. Spirit's Within, for example, can be used as part of the Pld burst or saved for silencing the Healer/Caster. Further, as you said, they can't maintain that burst while keeping the target locked down, like War's can; so, again, they have a choice to make between one or the other. All in all, though, they have do have the Dps to solo down a target, especially squishy ones like ranged players, if they're using their kit properly. By themselves, they'll never outpace direct heals (though, the same could be said for almost any other job in the game), but they can definitely solo targets, including the healer. They just have to be aware that if they chose to fight like this then they are ignoring half their support and defensive utility in favour of Dps. In Feast, that's an unwise decision (unless you happen to have a stellar team), but in FL or 8 vs 8 there's really no reason for a Pld not to be scoring kills.

[Iagainsti]

Even then, a paladin really would not be solo killing anyone unless the other healer was extremely bad..

I have personally seen a Paladin drop Divine Veil, pop FoF, and drop a monk from 100-0 before a healer could do anything, granted he had 6 medal stacks, but that's just good strat on the Pally's part.

Checked the combat log after the match, FoF, Combo'd into Royal Authority and weaved in FS, GS, and SW with the coup de grace Mercy Stroke. Well played Tortuga imo.

[RiceisNice]

I have personally seen a Paladin drop Divine Veil, pop FoF, and drop a monk from 100-0 before a healer could do anything, granted he had 6 medal stacks, but that's just good strat on the Pally's part.

Checked the combat log after the match, FoF, Combo'd into Royal Authority and weaved in FS, GS, and SW with the coup de grace Mercy Stroke. Well played Tortuga imo.

That's 6 stacks though, you're literally looking at a 90% damage taken penalty and I'd be surprised if that monk could survive any form of burst from a non-healer, especially if full swing was factored into that (though I'm not sure if you meant he did it before or after RA). I get what you're trying to point out, but I don't feel thats a good example of how capable a paladin burst is; again my point is that it's not particularly anything to write home about when talking relatively, especially when they can't do both stuns and burst combos through RA at the same time.

Hence, the "granted" in my original post. I'm not looking to debate, I'm just saying Paladins can and have a 7.5 second burst when the situation unfolds, and no one expects it when it drops you. That poor Monk didn't see it coming.

Well, I mean if you're at 6 stacks as a dps, you should be expecting to drop like a brick regardless of who the attacker is (excluding healers). Tank or not, tank stance or not, you'd have to be expecting some serious damage coming your way.

the complaining has always been "the SMN burst happens too fast and is too easy to execute", which was answered with a senseless nerf to Painflare, Energey Drain and Deathflare.

More accurately, it was a lot of damage relative to what was needed behind it and the weaknesses behind it. For BRd/MCH, they were cast times as well as a ranged penalty. For melee, it's the equviliant of sticking their hands in a blender. For BLM, they have no burst on the go. SMN has none of this, on top of a lower effective cooldown.

Like, have you ever seen the burst of a DRG, a MCH or a BRD? All 3 have pretty much (when played by people who actually know how to play these) a burst which is not only even more potent but, for DRG, even longer.

The bolded statement really has no meaning when you're talking class balance. And even then, in the hands of a capable SMN can still be just as powerful, if not moreso than those job's because of the AoE damage (which is an utter nightmare for nocturnal AST)

The only advantage of the SMN burst being that it could be executed every 60 sec (if not halted by a MNK...).

They also have CCs that are independent of aetherflow or being in melee range. Tri-bind is was a very powerful lockdown and no one would realistically waste purify on it.

Now I dislike being paired with SMNs in 4vs 4 because I find their killing capabilities unreliable. The solution to their burst was imo to simply extend the pvp cooldown of Tri-Disaster to say, 90 sec and give a shared 3-5 sec GCD to all Aetherflow skills (while respecting the normal CD of each). This would have put SMN on a fairer burst page.

That's actually worse of a nerf to SMN than what they got now, I'm not sure on your intentions.

[Iagainsti]

That's 6 stacks though, you're literally looking at a 90% damage taken penalty and I'd be surprised if that monk could survive any form of burst from a non-healer.

Hence, the "granted" in my original post. I'm not looking to debate, I'm just saying Paladins can and have a 7.5 second burst when the situation unfolds, and no one expects it when it drops you. That poor Monk didn't see it coming.

[NoelNoel]

That's actually worse of a nerf to SMN than what they got now, I'm not sure on your intentions.

In all regards it would be better. The SMN burst is basically tri > fester > painflare > ED > deathflare, now that 3 of the skills in the combo have been significantly nerfed, how can you fail to see that restoring the potency and simply having the burst take a few more seconds to fully execute (and thus a few more sceonds for the enemy to react, since people complained about not being able to react fast enough against a SMN burst) would be better for dps...? That's not even counting on the fact Focalization negates another chunk of that burst. The only issue I see with my suggestion is that it also gives more time to a MNK to stop said burst. If the possible MNK actually wants to attack a SMN with def buff. If I had to play SMN again curently I would probably skip ED and try to simply deal a more steady damage amount because the old burst won't work so well anymore.

Tri-bind is was a very powerful lockdown and no one would realistically waste purify on it

You just assume that as ranged. As melee I purify a 12 sec bind if I see my healer can't help me simply because the next one will only be 6 sec and that SMNs hardly spend their time doing a bind lock.

The bolded statement really has no meaning when you're talking class balance. And even then, in the hands of a capable SMN can still be just as powerful, if not moreso than those job's because of the AoE damage (which is an utter nightmare for nocturnal AST)

That I won't deny, but the noct AST VS SMN is another issue. Let's not forget most of them never even bother using Focalization or Collective Unconscious. Hell, most of them think they can just spam Aspected Benefic and save a whole party with just that.

More accurately, it was a lot of damage relative to what was needed behind it and the weaknesses behind it. For BRd/MCH, they were cast times as well as a ranged penalty. For melee, it's the equviliant of sticking their hands in a blender. For BLM, they have no burst on the go. SMN has none of this, on top of a lower effective cooldown.

Never felt like I was putting my hands in a blender when attacking a SMN as melee... Hell, as DRG even if the SMN has def buff and focuses on me I have enough time to wreck them (if they don't get healed of course). The only issue was/is when a SMN and someone else focuses on you, but that can be said of any DPS duo who does that. SMN needs little skill to perform well DPS wise, what I'm saying is that the changes they got were mostly inadequate, imo.

[RiceisNice]

In all regards it would be better. The SMN burst is basically tri > fester > painflare > ED > deathflare, now that 3 of the skills in the combo have been significantly nerfed, how can you fail to see that restoring the potency and simply having the burst take a few more seconds to fully execute...

The fact that you're making the burst take such a long time defeats the entire point of it being a burst. It's not that people couldn't react to a SMN burst (because realistically, it's actually one of the few that can be counterplayed with a well timed purify), but that it's relatively stronger with it's ease of use and lower effective cooldown.

You just assume that as ranged. As melee I purify a 12 sec bind if I see my healer can't help me simply because the next one will only be 6 sec and that SMNs hardly spend their time doing a bind lock.

.

Purify on it's own is an incredible cooldown. Unless your opening burst was contingent on getting it in sync with your team, a bind on a dps at worst prevents them from dpsing and would honestly be better off used for keeping your healer alive or removing something like full swing. Compared to sleep where the healer themselves can't do anything about it unless they/you use purify on them.

[Februs]

Hence, the "granted" in my original post. I'm not looking to debate, I'm just saying Paladins can and have a 7.5 second burst when the situation unfolds, and no one expects it when it drops you. That poor Monk didn't see it coming.

This plays into it quite a bit as well. Most people would want to burn me at the stake for saying this, but sometimes I actually prefer it when my dps on Pld does not cause interrupts, because it allows me to creep up on someone with dmg.

When one of my attacks interrupts a cast, the caster's knee jerk reaction is to automatically start running away from me so they have the freedom to cast. When my attacks don't cause interrupts, however, the caster often doesn't realize how much chip dmg I'm doing to them until it's too late. I''ve scored a lot of kills (especially on casters) simply because people underestimate how quickly a Pld burst cans stack up. That said, using that burst blows half of their party utility.

Almost any decision a Pld makes is a trade off of some kind. I'd say the hardest part of playing that job in Feast/Fold is making good judgement calls, because every decision a Pld makes can, and often does, have just as many negative consequences as it does positive ones.

[Iagainsti]

This plays into it quite a bit as well. Most people would want to burn me at the stake for saying this, but sometimes I actually prefer it when my dps on Pld does not cause interrupts, because it allows me to creep up on someone with dmg.

This^ I love just swatting a random DPS and not using stuns until my Combo reaches Storm's Eye, Then I'm Mashing the Eff out of my controller in an attempt to make Full Swing and Brutal Swing go off simultaneously, Pop Berserk for that fifth stack Holmgang+Purify Double Fell Cleave Mythril Tempest Heavy Swing and Mercy Stroke xD looks a little something like this: