Repair NPCs in Dungeons

[Zantitrach]

Someone mentioned the Aery before. It'd be easy to have a Dragoon follow you and hold the entrance; do recall - we all made it in, including Eistinien. Dragoons would definitely want to make a move on Nidhogg's lair, so it makes plenty of sense for them to be there.

No, it doesn’t. We practically had a suicide mission to the Aery. While Dragoons would WANT to go there IN-FORCE, they would have to retcon a LARGE portion of the story to get more dragoons in there.

The aery? Could easily put the same dragon that TAKES YOU TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE DUNGOUN and could be seeking to help you repair.

What?

I've actually yielded that putting it in places like Void Ark, Midas, Gordias, etc. wouldn't be very good. Those are raids, and are considered midcore content. They're also short enough that it's not really going to require an NPC - well, at least in the case of Gordias and Midas.

What? Those places have constant mechanics wipes. Great place for repairs. And what about Bismarck EX? Ravana EX? TEX, IEX, etc. Those are not raid content. But there’s 0 reason for an NPC vendor to be within a stone’s throw of Ifrit.

I mean, would it be completely unreasonable to have G'raha Tia at the entrance to World of DArkness and able to help repair your gear?

Yes, yes it would. He has no training, and would have to have a HUGE amount of his lore changed (he has a lot of it in various snippets through the unlocking of the Crystal Tower raids) to meet this criteria.

I've never met a pure crafter who doesn't do battle, unless they were an alt. Does my evidence make yours invalid?

This was in response to OP’s

How often do you see pure crafters anyways? I don't know about you, but I can count on one hand the number of people who exclusively craft I've met.

This is purely circumstantial and not a data-center wide constant. You should read the points that I respond to for context.

"Takes away their benefit" (Even though, really, it doesn't.)

I’ve got 3 people in my raid group alone who ONLY leveled crafting so they could repair during battle, etc. They. HATE. Crafting. So yes, it ONLY takes away their benefit. SE gonna refund them the time it took to do that?

Same reason they can stand at the entrance of a dungoun to enable the dungoun instead of coming in and helping us out. How does that not 'raise eyebrows' with anyone?

Because we’re the all powerful Warrior of Light, and they’re Nobody Boot-stain with 0 capability to assist IN the dungeon.

Negligence to do something is not necessarily willfully doing something. It just implies someone made a mistake, which is a human error.

You’re right here, but ironically negligence also implies YOUR failure to do something. YOUR failure, YOUR responsibility. YOU need to fix it. If you are negligent AND you still don’t fix the issue, then yes, it is WILLFILLY doing it. As you are WILLFULLY not fixing your negligence.

I've already contested these points multiple times, but people just parrot them and get refuted just as quickly. That's part of a debate, though, is stressing your point and proving/disproving with evidence.

There's no refutation, they say one thing, you say the opposite, neither of it is 100% fact, its all opinion. Your proving your point with “Evidence” is just as paper thin as everybody else's.


And I'm going to sound like a jerk here, but now that I see that its intentional from all your posts Eidolon, there is no d-u-n-g-o-u-n.

[Eidolon]

No, it doesn’t. We practically had a suicide mission to the Aery. While Dragoons would WANT to go there IN-FORCE, they would have to retcon a LARGE portion of the story to get more dragoons in there.

Really? It'd be pretty easy to say "We attempted to send a scouting party, but the defenses of the Aery saw most my allies fall. I've managed to survive by hiding amongst the rocks, but I don't know how much longer I can stay hidden."
Having such an NPC adds to the desperation of the atmosphere, and the "No going back now." kinda feeling that the Aery created with Nidhogg's lair.
As another pointed out, Lore is maleable. Lazy writing being preventative is not a reason to me to not do something. All it is, is a cheap and lazy excuse.

What?

Ah bloody 'ell, in this case I was referring to Sohm Al. Appologies for the mistake on my part. (Those two dungouns, I always mix them up, heh.)

What? Those places have constant mechanics wipes. Great place for repairs. And what about Bismarck EX? Ravana EX? TEX, IEX, etc. Those are not raid content. But there’s 0 reason for an NPC vendor to be within a stone’s throw of Ifrit.

I agree completely with this. However, again, consider the difference:
Ifrit -> Doesn't have you killing packs of mobs to the end, as well there are three bosses compared to the trials just being one boss. This was my major point - that these things aren't as in-need of it because it's substantially less likely for it to be a scenario that your gear would break. I have conceded this point before - that I would prefer it to only be for dungouns. Trials/raids do not apply to my request.
However, I could easily justify an NPC being in the start of each zone for the 'catch up' raids (Crystal Tower, Void ark) - it is the raiding where I may or may not be able to put NPC's in there. And I'm perfectly fine with that, as I said, I don't want to put them there.

Yes, yes it would. He has no training, and would have to have a HUGE amount of his lore changed (he has a lot of it in various snippets through the unlocking of the Crystal Tower raids) to meet this criteria.

His lack of training does not stop him from coming all the way to the end after we clear the path, and thus should not stop him from standing at the entrance saying "I will follow as soon as it is safe." He is clearly following us, so no, the lore is not stretched in the least in this scenario.

This was in response to OP’s

This is purely circumstantial and not a data-center wide constant. You should read the points that I respond to for context.

The point was, the 'evidence' in both scenarios is subjective. It does not make any point more/less valid, but I suppose you are right in this regard - it is better for me not to touch this one as it's moreso just fuel interjecting in this scenario.

I’ve got 3 people in my raid group alone who ONLY leveled crafting so they could repair during battle, etc. They. HATE. Crafting. So yes, it ONLY takes away their benefit. SE gonna refund them the time it took to do that?

No, it doesn't take away their benefit, because they still:
+Can repair over 100%, making it substantially more useful than an NPC.
+Can repair CHEAPER than using an NPC.
+Can repair AT ANY TIME, including during combat.
+Can repait at ANY PLACE, not requiring to talk to an NPC to do it.
So no, it does not take away from their benefits, in any way, shape or form. it is still useful to them to have it.

Because we’re the all powerful Warrior of Light, and they’re Nobody Boot-stain with 0 capability to assist IN the dungeon.

Point is, the NPC standing at the entrance on the outside of the duty, and the NPC standing at the entrance on the inside of the duty is exactly the same. In both scenarios, they are doing nothing special at all. They are just standing there as a 'guard' of sorts, and this applies to all the NPC's.

You’re right here, but ironically negligence also implies YOUR failure to do something. YOUR failure, YOUR responsibility. YOU need to fix it. If you are negligent AND you still don’t fix the issue, then yes, it is WILLFILLY doing it. As you are WILLFULLY not fixing your negligence.

I've already taken the time to fix my mistake. However, I can not fix the mistakes of others. Thus, I would like SE to add a failsafe to make sure that other people are protected. There is only so much I, as an individual player, can do.
And again, making a mistake and being negligent, while it is the fault of the person, is still a human mistake. It happens.
Let's think of it this way. There are rules in many scenarios that require attention, second-checks and verifications, that protect from negligence. Under your proposed system, we wouldn't need these second-checks and verifications built into the system, because everyone should "Just not be negligent."
The fact of the matter is, systems are in place to protect people from negligence and mistakes, because they are needed. They may seem redundant at times, but the purpose is simple - to protect the lowest common denominator from making a mistake.

There's no refutation, they say one thing, you say the opposite, neither of it is 100% fact, its all opinion. Your proving your point with “Evidence” is just as paper thin as everybody else's.

Quite the opposite, I've poitned out exact lines of dialogue, NPC's that could apply to the zones, how it can be used to supplement the lore, the actual benefits that crafter's have over those who use NPC's and how it does not take away from their benefits.
The scenarios I can not truly refute, are the ones that neither side can claim to understand - such as the complexity of the coding that one other poster claimed to see. They stated it would be "Easier to just make it so you can repair in dungouns", but there's no proof of that. I, however, do not claim it is "Easier to just add NPC's to dungouns", but rather, made a concession and said "I would rather see both" as well as I do not believe the fact that "It might be hard :c" is a reason to not add something to the game.

And I'm going to sound like a jerk here, but now that I see that its intentional from all your posts Eidolon, there is no d-u-n-g-o-u-n.

Ah yeah thanks, I always spell it wrong, I'll keep an eye on it and try to fix it. XD I don't mind someone correcting my spelling and will actually thank you for it, it is a known issue with me but when I am typing so much I sometimes neglect a little on the spelling. I'll run a spellcheck next time to help out if it bothers ya.

While we're waiting for this wonderful feature to be implemented, here's a workaround:
1.) Write "Check gear" on a post-it note
2.) Stick the note on your display
3.) ???
4.) Profit!

Yeah, I'm serious! I kept forgetting to gather soils for our FC gardeners, so I just put a post-it on my display as a reminder and it helped.

The game does remind you in BIG text in the middle of the screen to repair your gear when the condition reaches 10%. After that dung you should head straight to the repair NPC. Unless you forget. If so, see workaround.

See, I'm a little mixed on this. I think postit notes are great, but ... I'll be honest, I don't know many people who want to put post it notes on their computer. Especially if they do more with it (Such as work, or even just other games) that pertain specifically to FFXIV all over their computers?

And I also don't keep any Post-It notes around. <_< I mostly use technology for my reminders and notes.

[Zantitrach]

Really? It'd be pretty easy to say "We attemp.......den."

This dragoon (lore) who has 100% focused on martial powers can suddenly fix your gear? How? He has no crafting/repair training!

His lack of training does not stop him from coming all the way to the end after we clear the path, and thus should not stop him from standing at the entrance saying "I will follow as soon as it is safe." He is clearly following us, so no, the lore is not stretched in the least in this scenario.

His lack of training for REPAIR. He's not a CRAFTER. There would have to be loooots of dialogue ret-conned and redone. You can't just suddenly him show up, oh by the way I craft, lemme fix your gear plx.

No, it doesn't take away their benefit, because they still:
..
So no, it does not take away from their benefits, in any way, shape or form. it is still useful to them to have it.

No, if there's a NPC at the beginning of the dungeon, they no longer will NEED to repair mid combat as they can literally do it right when the instance starts so the gear won't be break mid-combat. They will not NEED to repair to 199%, as they can do it right when the instance starts so the extra 100% is useless. By having the NPC Right there when the instant starts it eliminates the positives OF the positives you list. To clarify:

+Can repair over 100%, making it substantially more useful than an NPC.

Repairing over 100% is POINTLESS when EVERY instance you do has a repair NPC.

+Can repair AT ANY TIME, including during combat.

Repairing during combat is pointless when the beginning of the instance has a repair NPC (0 chance of it breaking during combat if you repair right when the instance starts and if it breaks during a long dungeon then you HAD to have died, which means you're back at the beginning and can use the repair NPC again).

+Can repait at ANY PLACE, not requiring to talk to an NPC to do it.

Completely pointless “perk” to begin with. We still have to talk to an NPC to buy dark matter, albeit slightly less often. Flip-side it… the repair NPC lets me repair ALL my gear without having to change classes, something that I use FREQUENTLY for my crafting classes as shared gear means the MH/OH don’t lose as much durability and are not at the same durability loss as the rest.

+Can repair CHEAPER than using an NPC.

This is the ONLY “perk” they now have, and you know what, if you have the crafting classes… you are NOT hurting for money. So yet again….this.is.pointless.

I've already taken the time to fix my mistake. However, I can not fix the mistakes of others. Thus, I would like SE to add a failsafe to make sure that other people are protected. There is only so much I, as an individual player, can do.

The “Failsafe” you want is to be able to request repairs from crafters in your party. Which people have mentioned MANY times in this thread. NOT adding a repair NPC.

Under your proposed system, we wouldn't need these second-checks and verifications built into the system, because everyone should "Just not be negligent."

No, I have NOT proposed a system. Don’t put words in a person’s mouth. I’m in favor of me, the CRAFTER being able to repair other person’s gear. Have them carry the dark matter like me and request it like a meld. I’m happy. I want no compensation for this or anything, I want them to be RESPONSIBLE and carry dark matter or repair their gear before they queue in.

Quite the opposite, I've poitned out exact lines of dialogue, NPC's that could apply to the zones, how it can be used to supplement the lore, the actual benefits that crafter's have over those who use NPC's and how it does not take away from their benefits.

No offense, your “exact lines of dialogue” for lore purposes are shoddy and do not fit half the scenarios you claim they do.

I'll run a spellcheck next time to help out if it bothers ya.

I knew what you meant, so it didn’t “bother” me. I was more just shocked that you’re intentionally spelling it that way and not accidentally as it is not a way to spell that word. Ever.

And I’d like to propose my question again. Has an NPC ever repaired gear with dark matter? If not then the lore is that it’s the player character’s extensive crafting experience that allows the use of this dark matter. Which means you’re not just asking for Joe Schmoe NPC repair to every instance, but an actual crafting aficionado (lore-wise) to every instance, which is even MORE un realistic.

[Eidolon]

This dragoon (lore) who has 100% focused on martial powers can suddenly fix your gear? How? He has no crafting/repair training!

The Dragoons (Lore) are all about effectively fighting Dragons. Part of any combat experience, is frequently the upkeep of gear. If your armor breaks while in the field, you will be able to repair it in the interim of the fight.

Someone who neglects this is very possible to exist, but someone who exercises the above example is equally as likely to exist. It's not unrealistic for someone to be able to repair their own gear.

His lack of training for REPAIR. He's not a CRAFTER. There would have to be loooots of dialogue ret-conned and redone. You can't just suddenly him show up, oh by the way I craft, lemme fix your gear plx.

He's an adventurer, is he not? Is there anything to imply he does not craft? Anything to imply that he does not have the capability of repair? Further, you are taking game elements (The level of your jobs) as elements of lore. Tataru had story added to her that allowed her to weave, but nothing before that (IIRC, going by memory on this one, sorry) ishgard that suggested she should be able to repair gear.
This goes back around to the subject I originally brought up - these things can be used to enrich the characters, using a variety of unique methods. For example, he might have a device he found while adventuring that repairs the gear - so that he himself isn't the crafter, but he has a way to do it. Such things can add depth and flavor to the characters that are placed that is sorely lacking at times (And at other times, that we just overlook - such as NPC's in areas we can talk to in the interim.)

No, if there's a NPC at the beginning of the dungeon, they no longer will NEED to repair mid combat as they can literally do it right when the instance starts so the gear won't be break mid-combat. They will not NEED to repair to 199%, as they can do it right when the instance starts so the extra 100% is useless. By having the NPC Right there when the instant starts it eliminates the positives OF the positives you list. To clarify

Repairing over 100% is POINTLESS when EVERY instance you do has a repair NPC.

I can't really agree with this. Repairing over 100% is a huge benefit, because it means not only do you get the full benefit of the repair, every single time, but you also can go longer from the same repairs than someone who repairs otherwise.

Going from 120%, as an example, to 0%, will take longer than 100% to 0%.

Going from 120%, and repairing again at 20%, will put you back to 120%, just like repairing at 0% will put you back to 100%. However, in the second example, you lose the use of your gear for that 0%, compared to a crafter who can do it (in combat) or likewise before it becomes a problem (at 20%)

I won't deny, being able to repair my own gear is a godsend. If I couldn't do it, I'd probably have been made useless a number of times in dungeons.

So, I can't really agree that it eliminates the positives of repairing over 100%. The benefits of it still exist.

Repairing during combat is pointless when the beginning of the instance has a repair NPC (0 chance of it breaking during combat if you repair right when the instance starts and if it breaks during a long dungeon then you HAD to have died, which means you're back at the beginning and can use the repair NPC again).

I can effectively consider it gil lost and profit lost if I repair at the start of the dungeon instead of repairing my gear using Dark Matter. The reason for this, is because of the fact that the rapairs from an NPC cost more than the Dark Matter costs, and I only get up to 100%. Meanwhile, Dark Matter gives me 100% on top of my current repairs - and will allow me to wait a little longer for my next repair (Assuming I repaired before 0%.)

The benefit of being a crafter is definitely there, you just have to be willing to accept that the only benefit you truly lose, is the exclusivity of being able to repair in the dungoun (as a person who leveled the crafts.) I think that prioritizing the well being of the party that might potentially suffer the mistake, is more important than the well being of someone's feelings because they are no longer part of a group that can do it exclusively.

Completely pointless “perk” to begin with. We still have to talk to an NPC to buy dark matter, albeit slightly less often. Flip-side it… the repair NPC lets me repair ALL my gear without having to change classes, something that I use FREQUENTLY for my crafting classes as shared gear means the MH/OH don’t lose as much durability and are not at the same durability loss as the rest.

This is the ONLY “perk” they now have, and you know what, if you have the crafting classes… you are NOT hurting for money. So yet again….this.is.pointless.

Not all crafters are rich. Many people who - as I believe you quoted - only leveled their crafters exclusively for the purpose of repairing mid raid and hate crafting - are likely not wealthy due to crafting.

When I first leveled my crafters, for example, I had millions of gil. The reasons for this, was because I would do run selling (Ah, I better duck, I am sure someone will hate me for this.) - it had nothing to do with my crafts being leveled.

Likewise, I have had friends who have said, "I leveled my crafts but I'm not rich." It is all about effort, so to use one's wealth as a basis of the validity of adding this, is flawed because it does not take all playstyles into consideration.

The “Failsafe” you want is to be able to request repairs from crafters in your party. Which people have mentioned MANY times in this thread. NOT adding a repair NPC.

Actually, I have taken note of this many times, and have contested it for only two reasons:
1) I do not believe the addition of an NPC to the start, as well as being able to request repairs, are mutually exclusive. I believe that both would be great additions to the game.
2) This being exclusively added, means that people will need to remember to keep a stack of DArk Matter with them, as well as have someone else in the party who is able to repair their gear (So you are banking on having both of these things.)
2b) Should you allow the Dark Matter to be consumed from the requested players inventory, then you will likely see more hesitation from others about this because of the fact that they are effectively "Paying" a player to repair their gear, and if you add in the ability to pay them gil, you have created a scenario in which money can be moved between servers. Even capping it off, it wouldn't alleviate this concern that was also mentioned in the topic.

No, I have NOT proposed a system. Don’t put words in a person’s mouth. I’m in favor of me, the CRAFTER being able to repair other person’s gear. Have them carry the dark matter like me and request it like a meld. I’m happy. I want no compensation for this or anything, I want them to be RESPONSIBLE and carry dark matter or repair their gear before they queue in.

How should I say this -

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but your suggestion is moreso that we don't need failsafes because people should be accountable for it. While this is a great thing in theory, it is very poor in practice. That is the point I want to make to you.

If you take away failsafes, you create a scenario that is far more dangerous (Which was the primary point, if albeit poorly communicated, of that statement.) Even your suggestion, in your own words, 'have them carry matter lik me', is extremely poor, because it
A) relies on them being in a party with someone like you
b) requires them to have the matter, taking up an inventory slot in an already limited inventory.

It's a very poor system to protect and help the players, and actually, in contrast, it is only trying to add more benefits to DoH. If one can argue against taking away benefits from DoH, why do we need to give them more benefits?

Currently, a DoH:
1) Is very useful in terms of end-game raiding, especially in the initial parts of it. Most cutting-edge raiders, world firsters, etc, were using crafted gear, because it was Uncapped (unlike the raid content we had, which I personally hate, but it is an undeniable benefit)
2) In theory, COULD have lots of money from their crafting (Though this is not garunteed, it is a potential benefit of it)
3) Is capable of repairing anywhere, anytime, at a cheaper rate, above 100%.
4) Have more immediate access to new items, due to being able to make them themselves. Crafters, those who make it, for all intents and purposes have "First access" to all new glamors. Followed by those with large wallets. Followed by the common players when the prices fall. Take for example, Thavnarian gear - it was originally millions of gil. I helped people farm it and make it as a crafter.

No offense, your “exact lines of dialogue” for lore purposes are shoddy and do not fit half the scenarios you claim they do.

Well, I'm not a writer, so I won't pretend that my writings are perfect. However, I will say, it's more credible to say that an NPC is quoted at the very entrance of a dungoun and likewise that - they could easily be moved inside in many scenarios, is more credible than saying "It goes against lore" without actually giving any citation. However, there are a few cases where it might be rough - as you pointed out, such as the Aery. I can concede that it might take some creativity, but in that creativity, we create more depth within the world.

To me, that does not take away from the world. That only adds to it. Can we come to a consensus on that?

I knew what you meant, so it didn’t “bother” me. I was more just shocked that you’re intentionally spelling it that way and not accidentally as it is not a way to spell that word. Ever.

Yea I'll speak earnestly for a moment here, it is literal ignorance (lack of education of the correct spelling) on my end. It's how I always believed it was spelled as a child, and somerthing I have failed to rectify as an adult. Which is funny, because as you can tell - I am quite literate. But it is a failing that I aknowledge in my own life. XD

And I’d like to propose my question again. Has an NPC ever repaired gear with dark matter? If not then the lore is that it’s the player character’s extensive crafting experience that allows the use of this dark matter. Which means you’re not just asking for Joe Schmoe NPC repair to every instance, but an actual crafting aficionado (lore-wise) to every instance, which is even MORE un realistic.

We actually don't know what method the NPC's use. It's a point where the gameplay is divergant from the actual lore. I doubt the NPC's see a menu pop up saying "Do you want to repair this Person's gear for $gil?" like it would be in The Gamer manga (Though that'd be awesome.)

Simply, we could say they DO use materia, and the reason why it costs more from a Merchant is because of the fact that it is the profit margin for their repair (Charging for the service, but not the materials used.) For example, a blacksmith wouldn't charge you for his forge when he makes a hammer. However, he'd charge you a fair deal for the finished sword because that's the product he's providing. A bar doesn't charge you the cost of the establishment, but they might get an entry fee and their drinks are clearly higher than the cost of the actual cost because that's how they turn a profit.

So, for all intents and purposes, we do not know how NPC's go about repairs. However, it is done instantaneously, in a single transaction. The game does not Fade To Black to suggest a passage of time, which could be argued to imply that they do not take it back to the forge for reinforcement.

Does that satisfy for an answer to it? I do not want to say "They use it" or "They do not use it", because contextually speaking there is not any evidence (As I recall, please cite if you have a source that suggests otherwise!) that they do it one way or the other. All we have is situational evidence, which in a court of law, would really not hold up. I'd prefer to avoid it here, on both ends.

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As an aside, while we may be para-quoting and discussing with one another, I would like to commend you on your maturity in terms of the discussion. It is a rare thing on the forums to meet someone who completely avoids defaulting to insults, and I respect it completely.