Repair NPCs in Dungeons

[Andrea]

Next up.

Retainer bells in dungeons because I forgot to equip my gear.

Can we have someone in the dungeon that will take over if I get something I don't like?

[WinterLuna]

The point is that the places have already been marked as so dangerous that only the adventurers are brave (or stupid) enough to enter such a place. Have you wondered why the grand companies don't solve them themselves and instead rely on you to do it? Because they expect a slaughter in there.

And honestly, if you're going to say some traveler is there as an excuse for a repair guy, tell me why he thought sitting inside the dungeon and waiting was good profits. 99/100 times it won't be.

Yeah, that's my entire point :P the OP is using "there are other ludicrous things in the game" as logic to how NPC's would fit in dungeons. My response is that the lore is already there in those dungeons therefore it wouldn't fit, regardless of whatever silly things are implemented into the game.

Apologies if worded badly. I am very against the idea of having random NPC's cater to my repair needs in dungeons.

[Kosmos992k]

Next up.

Market Board in dungeon because I forgot to buy food

McDonalds Express kiosk?

[Jijifli]

Yeah, that's my entire point :P the OP is using "there are other ludicrous things in the game" as logic to how NPC's would fit in dungeons. My response is that the lore is already there in those dungeons therefore it wouldn't fit, regardless of whatever silly things are implemented into the game.

Apologies if worded badly. I am very against the idea of having random NPC's cater to my repair needs in dungeons.

The wording made me think you were for it, not against it. Apologies.

[WinterLuna]

My bad, I worded it badly, no worries ^^

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

being a forgetful person is not a conscious choice. .

Being a forgetful person very much is a conscious choice, unless you've been stricken with short term memory loss or amnesia.

[Cherie]

This 'blessing' was added not because they wanted you to be unable to spend more than 60 minutes in a dungoun, but because it helps remove the strain from the servers. That is their biggest reason, to make sure people aren't AFK and holding up the dungoun que. It ensures that there will almost always (unless the playerbase breaches a certain capacity) be a dungoun slot available to be filled.

I don't doubt logistically it makes sense that there is a instance timer... If that was the *only* reason it's there, then all instance timers would be the same amount of time. They just adjusted the diadem instance timers for all modes... They are looking out for us. SE is good people.



I'm not spending more than a hour in Lost City HM with someone just because they refuse to do their appropriate role (IE - tank goes "but I don't wanna tank, I'ma dps...rawr" I wish I was making that example up).

[Zantitrach]

The only reason people have said is that it would devalue crafting.

Actually, someone also pointed out that FF is all about lore. So a repair NPC has to have a story reason to be in the dungeon. And any reason a repair NPC would be in void ark, midas, gordian, etc. is non-existent.

How often do you see pure crafters anyways? I don't know about you, but I can count on one hand the number of people who exclusively craft I've met.

I've met more pure crafters than people who have had gear break in a dungeon/trial/etc.

Repair NPCs outside dungeons remove gil from the economy.
Repair NPCs inside dungeons would remove gil from the economy.
The purpose of durability is to remove gil from the economy.

Got any proof of just how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.

Got any proof of how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.

"There are plenty of good reasons, but I'm not going to list any of them." No, none of the reasons given have really been worthwhile. So far, it's always been "I had to level my DoH so you should too!" there is no good reason to force someone into crafting who does not want to be into crafting.

*Emphasis Mine*
No, it hasn't. If you're not going to read the thread, don't comment.

It's funny because people think they'd just throw an NPC in there at the very start, but...
it'd be so easy to thematically add it into each area.

Great, now do the tough ones, The Aery, Void Ark, BCoB, SCoB, FCoB, Midas, Gordian, TEX, REX, IEX, LEX, BEX, Rav EX, Thordan....

And again. People forget. . Deserving to be screwed over because I forget is like saying a blind person deserves to be hit by a car because they didn't see it.

That is NOTHING at all alike. The blind guy guy LITERALLY not see the car. This analogy only works if you LITERALLY cannot repair your gear or see its durability outside the instance.

Whether I'm more forgetful than the average person or not, it's not something I can help. It's not my fault.

*Emphasis mine*
Yes, yes it is. It is YOUR fault that YOU forgot. Own up to YOUR mistake. This is YOUR problem. Get a sticky note, write repair gear on it, stick it on your monitor. Stick it on your keyboard before you log off, do something.

Actually, it is a good comparison. Because being blind is not a conscious choice, and forgetting or being a forgetful person is not a conscious choice. There are actually many reasons and many actual disabilities that can cause people can have memory problems, and those reasons are never conscious choices to have it.

No, its a TERRIBLE, INNACURATE, and... well.... stupid comparison.

You've been offending me since your first post here, I actually have memory issues

Then do something about it. As I mentioned above, put a sticky note on your monitor, keyboard, the glass you drink out of, w/e.

No, this is a "People are human and make mistakes. LEt's give them a way to fix it so that they won't wind up screwing over 3 other people, wheather that person is me or someone else."

They DID give you a way. Level a crafter. Carry Dark Matter.

"I want them to overcharge because of spite, not because of an actual reason."

Sounds legit to me. Repair vendors in town? They're in town, with a forge, etc to repair. Cheap. Having to have a portable forge or specialized enough to be a NON-COMBATANT crafter haul his butt to the most dangerous places in the realm? Yeah, charge more. That is a legit, lore reason. You mentioned he has bodygaurds in one of your prior posts, well he has to pay them to take his NON-COMBATANT butt out there.

Although now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure I've seen a NPC repair with dark matter before. Have you?

[Eidolon]

The point is that the places have already been marked as so dangerous that only the adventurers are brave (or stupid) enough to enter such a place. Have you wondered why the grand companies don't solve them themselves and instead rely on you to do it? Because they expect a slaughter in there.

Have you ever noticed, a majority of the time, that there is an NPC we talk to outside the dungoun - frequently, a member of a Grand Company, who stands at the entrance going "It's dangerous in here. Make sure you have your allies with you as you go deeper." <DUTY UNLOCKED>


This is why I've been saying it'd be really easy to have the NPC venture in deeper, just to the entrance. Stopping there, some light flavor text stating he'll support you and hold at the entrance while waiting for you would easily validate it 9 times out of 10. I can't think of much of any situation where this wouldn't work. And where it wouldn't work, could probably be handled by something similar in the area.

For example; the Antitower. They could have one of the broom/frog subordinates follow you in that can repair your gear. A member of a GC/Idylshire wouldn't fit in this case. Same with library.

Someone mentioned the Aery before. It'd be easy to have a Dragoon follow you and hold the entrance; do recall - we all made it in, including Eistinien. Dragoons would definitely want to make a move on Nidhogg's lair, so it makes plenty of sense for them to be there.

The aery? Could easily put the same dragon that TAKES YOU TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE DUNGOUN and could be seeking to help you repair.

In many cases, the groundwork is there. The only point of contention that I can't really speak on - is how much 'work' it would be to add an NPC. Stating that adding one NPC to each dungoun at the start would take a lot of work is questionable at best, but I am not going to claim to understand how much work it would be for SE to add in an NPC. The fact that we can easily add NPC's to our houses at any position, makes me think that it would be pretty easy. Easier than reprogramming the game to allow people to repair eachother's gear, as well as allowing it to be done while in a dungoun (An action that's not capable right now.)

Actually, someone also pointed out that FF is all about lore. So a repair NPC has to have a story reason to be in the dungeon. And any reason a repair NPC would be in void ark, midas, gordian, etc. is non-existent.

I've actually yielded that putting it in places like Void Ark, Midas, Gordias, etc. wouldn't be very good. Those are raids, and are considered midcore content. They're also short enough that it's not really going to require an NPC - well, at least in the case of Gordias and Midas.

The Void Ark, actually, would be possible to have one of the sky pirates (You know, the ones who took you there) at the entrance. THESE GUYS ALSO APPEAR AFTER YOU BEAT THE LAST BOSS. It's not completely unreasonable that Pirates that come to the very end would be at the start after having taken you to the Void Ark.

But an area like World of Darkness would have to be a named NPC - this would be more difficult, but not completely impossible.I mean, would it be completely unreasonable to have G'raha Tia at the entrance to World of DArkness and able to help repair your gear?

I've met more pure crafters than people who have had gear break in a dungeon/trial/etc.

I've never met a pure crafter who doesn't do battle, unless they were an alt. Does my evidence make yours invalid?

Got any proof of how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.

I'm confused by this. I think everyone can agree that Repair NPC's help remove gil from the economy. They're a good thing for the economy. Just like how even repairs done by a player can hopefully remove gil from the economy (Buying the dark matter.)

*Emphasis Mine*
No, it hasn't. If you're not going to read the thread, don't comment.

A majority, I should say then. Nitpicking on the details, but when I paint in a broad stroke like that you are right, I do a disservice to people who give other reasons, regardless of how easy it is to contest them. A lot of people, so far, have stressed that their feelings would be hurt and that it "Takes away their benefit" (Even though, really, it doesn't.)

I don't doubt logistically it makes sense that there is a instance timer... If that was the *only* reason it's there, then all instance timers would be the same amount of time. They just adjusted the diadem instance timers for all modes... They are looking out for us. SE is good people.

There's nothing really to suggest that they made the duty timer 1 hour in order to say "Finish it by 1 hour or else." But I think that, unfortunately, this is going to be a He Said She Said kinda deal. That same image doesn't answer why the duty timer exists in raids, which people have consistently put in 10+ hours into to clear said content.

I'm not spending more than a hour in Lost City HM with someone just because they refuse to do their appropriate role (IE - tank goes "but I don't wanna tank, I'ma dps...rawr" I wish I was making that example up).

I've spent the time leading up to the kickout for duties in the early days, trying to teach people. It's always a little saddening to part ways with them, but sometimes, I have more fun playing this game for the social interactions than clearing of content. This was especially evident when the game first came out, and people didn't outgear dungouns while leveling and making them so easy.

Okay, let's go down the list.

Anyone will be able to repair anywhere with this. Your gear broke out in the world? Queue solo into a dungeon, repair, leave. Not even a penalty. And they can't hide it behind monsters, because not only will people just do lower ones, but then you'll get the, "Why over there my gear was 0% on entry" requests. Therefor, perk removed. Not only that, it's cheap to repair anyways. The only perk that stays is over 100%, but even then why have it up so high if you can just repair at any time by just using DF?

Actually, no, the perks that stay are exactly the following:
+Able to repair anywhere, any time, with minimal difficulty (Not having to que into the dungoun, as you suggested, which is going through two loading screens, as well as having to change your settings to enable solo-que into dungouns)
+Able to repair above 100%
+Able to repair cheaper than using a vendor.

This does not take away from crafting, in any way shape or form. It is still the most advantagous to have your crafts leveled. This is for the more casual players, who may not have spent 2-5+ Months repairing their gear and have forgotten to repair their gear before a dungoun because they were our questing.

If you want to tell me why that guard is standing there to repair your gear completely randomly in the dungeon instead of helping you out doesn't raise any eyebrows, I'd love to hear it.

Same reason they can stand at the entrance of a dungoun to enable the dungoun instead of coming in and helping us out. How does that not 'raise eyebrows' with anyone? They're not engaging in combat because they expect you to do it because you're the Warrior of Light / Adventurer they pulled in. But they are there to offer support, guide, and lead.

Two deaths barely hits your gear. If you're doing from fully repaired to broken in 2 deaths, I want to know what you're doing because clearly it's not the deaths. I don't have DoH to repair. I can take 20+ deaths without breaking my accessories, forget armor.

Don't forget that regular combat (Killing mobs on the way to a target) gives consistent hits to your armor's durability. Someone who enters into a dungoun at 11% durability, for example, would likely get 10% after the first pull. I remember forgetting to check my durability because I spent a day grinding out dungouns for my relic back in 2.X, and biting my lips wondering "Is my gear going to survive to the end of the dungoun?"

]If you're going to say that underperforming if not is the reason, then they weren't going to perform up anyways. Obviously, they can't just press a key to see their equipment.

Negligence to do something is not necessarily willfully doing something. It just implies someone made a mistake, which is a human error. I can't tell you how often my gear hits 10% because I neglect it for periods of time. But I can repair it anywhere, so the warning (10%) actually serves me well. And sometimes I'll remember to do it at 90% and get 190% on it.

My point of gear checking is I've had people go in with gear not knowing they had certain things on (Like a roleplay set.) It just slows things down. Hell, even I managed to go in with Ilvl 90 daggers instead of 210 on NIN on expert and nobody even noticed until we ended because stuff still died super fast.

I'd notice if I went in with an i90 Spear instead of an i210 spear, but I think that's because I care about my damage in general and making sure that things go smoothly. I hate weakening DPS, I want to make things fast because that's my role.

How does it promote QoL? "Oh now anyone can repair anywhere now lol." There are people saying we shouldn't need DoH for any melding. I've even seen people claim we shouldn't need someone to craft the new gear to get it, and that we should just be rewarded it. With every single thing you remove that DoH has as a good advantage, it becomes less popular. In fact, this will promote more perks being removed. If this passed and the melding didn't, then there'd be complaints until it happened. Then if that passed, why do we have to have them craft it? Before you know it, DoH is a joke in every way.

Slippery sloap arguements, I have already pointed out, are a fallacy. Currently, yes, adding repair NPC's to dungouns would be a quality of life improvement, because it enables people to repair their gear in a dungoun. Currently, there is the potential for someone's gear to break with no recourse to fix it in the dungoun. Your advice to 'just check it before' is great in hindsight, but is poor in practice of the actuality of it happening.

Now, I'll address your slope. I do like the idea of melding being available to all, but I understand why people don't want it. The reason I think this is different, is because of the fact that Melds aren't actually required. You do not need melds on your gear for your gear to be effective - melds are maximizing. Melds are a luxury.

However, if your gear hits 0%, you are basically dead weight after a certain point. If every piece is broken, you may as well just take off all your gear, because you are literally completely trash to the party at that point.

This is why I don't agree with this fallacy. It just doesn't work in the context of the debate. ONe is required to being able to play (Having your gear above 0%), the other is purely a luxury.

But if you REALLY want me to put more cons, then here. Horrible groups don't break after someone never repaired. gear will be fixed, so they could put effort (unlikely) to doing what they need to do correctly. You won't need to level DoH to repair items.

And repeat on this con. It hurts DoH. There is no but on it. It. Hurts. DoH.

This has happened to me before. I had a good group. But our tank's gear broke. This was before the patch that was added that removed the ability to reque back in - "Kick me real quick, I need to go repair."

10 minutes later, we were still waiting for him. There was no way for us to take the dungoun without him, and we couldn't seem to get our ranks replenished. We had to disband, because of that mistake. (He probably couldn't get our dungoun to pop, in retrospect.)

You keep saying "It hurts DoH." I don't think you understand what that word means. [/PrincessBride]

This does not affect DoH, because as I pointed out above, the DoH still has multiple benefits, and all benefits of having DoH are completely retained. The only difference is, you're now not exclusively the only one who can repair in a dungoun. But you're still able to repair anywhere in the dungoun, at any time, able to exceed 100%.

Maybe those points keep being thrown at you because they're legit problems? You should be able to keep an eye on your gear as someone that does COMBAT as your preferred way. The point is that combat players and DoH players work together. You can supply the items, and they can make it. They can repair it. They can fix it and make you stronger. Why should they lose benefit because you don't want to literally press the c key to see your gear is breaking and that maybe you should go talk to a repair guy.

If you're damaging full to queue pop, you're doing something wrong. So wrong in fact, that I think you wouldn't be much help in the dungeon anyways.

I've already contested these points multiple times, but people just parrot them and get refuted just as quickly. That's part of a debate, though, is stressing your point and proving/disproving with evidence.

[Zantitrach]

Someone mentioned the Aery before. It'd be easy to have a Dragoon follow you and hold the entrance; do recall - we all made it in, including Eistinien. Dragoons would definitely want to make a move on Nidhogg's lair, so it makes plenty of sense for them to be there.

No, it doesn’t. We practically had a suicide mission to the Aery. While Dragoons would WANT to go there IN-FORCE, they would have to retcon a LARGE portion of the story to get more dragoons in there.

The aery? Could easily put the same dragon that TAKES YOU TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE DUNGOUN and could be seeking to help you repair.

What?

I've actually yielded that putting it in places like Void Ark, Midas, Gordias, etc. wouldn't be very good. Those are raids, and are considered midcore content. They're also short enough that it's not really going to require an NPC - well, at least in the case of Gordias and Midas.

What? Those places have constant mechanics wipes. Great place for repairs. And what about Bismarck EX? Ravana EX? TEX, IEX, etc. Those are not raid content. But there’s 0 reason for an NPC vendor to be within a stone’s throw of Ifrit.

I mean, would it be completely unreasonable to have G'raha Tia at the entrance to World of DArkness and able to help repair your gear?

Yes, yes it would. He has no training, and would have to have a HUGE amount of his lore changed (he has a lot of it in various snippets through the unlocking of the Crystal Tower raids) to meet this criteria.

I've never met a pure crafter who doesn't do battle, unless they were an alt. Does my evidence make yours invalid?

This was in response to OP’s

How often do you see pure crafters anyways? I don't know about you, but I can count on one hand the number of people who exclusively craft I've met.

This is purely circumstantial and not a data-center wide constant. You should read the points that I respond to for context.

"Takes away their benefit" (Even though, really, it doesn't.)

I’ve got 3 people in my raid group alone who ONLY leveled crafting so they could repair during battle, etc. They. HATE. Crafting. So yes, it ONLY takes away their benefit. SE gonna refund them the time it took to do that?

Same reason they can stand at the entrance of a dungoun to enable the dungoun instead of coming in and helping us out. How does that not 'raise eyebrows' with anyone?

Because we’re the all powerful Warrior of Light, and they’re Nobody Boot-stain with 0 capability to assist IN the dungeon.

Negligence to do something is not necessarily willfully doing something. It just implies someone made a mistake, which is a human error.

You’re right here, but ironically negligence also implies YOUR failure to do something. YOUR failure, YOUR responsibility. YOU need to fix it. If you are negligent AND you still don’t fix the issue, then yes, it is WILLFILLY doing it. As you are WILLFULLY not fixing your negligence.

I've already contested these points multiple times, but people just parrot them and get refuted just as quickly. That's part of a debate, though, is stressing your point and proving/disproving with evidence.

There's no refutation, they say one thing, you say the opposite, neither of it is 100% fact, its all opinion. Your proving your point with “Evidence” is just as paper thin as everybody else's.


And I'm going to sound like a jerk here, but now that I see that its intentional from all your posts Eidolon, there is no d-u-n-g-o-u-n.