Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

[Geula]

I don't think anyone asks healers to be full time DPS, but just like the chat bubble says, when there is time. And usually there is plenty of time from what I see.

[Kosmos992k]

I don't think anyone asks healers to be full time DPS, but just like the chat bubble says, when there is time. And usually there is plenty of time from what I see.

Simple point. Lets say I'm healing, but I'm throwing in Aero and Stone of whichever level is available. I'm using virus, and as needed even sleeping targets. Everynow and again, i get off a couple of Holy's. But, for whatever reason I don't have MP to burn, or there isn't time, and I fall back to straight healing. Who are you to decide if there is plenty of time for me to DPS? White Mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

[Nekotee]

Some White Mage stuff
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White mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

I do mainly run dungeon as whm and having around 14k MP is a lot to DPS with.
I choose to DPS most of the time because "there is no need for the team be 100% HP 100% of the time" i don't care if the tank, DPS or me are hurt... As long as it doesn't reach 0 why would i burn MP to heal ?

At 60 you only need 3k mana in order to keep the tank alive without problem (not counting bene and tetra which are awesome skill)
I always stay around 5k mana dpsing and healing enough, and never had a struggle.
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Oh and of course this is not a way to run 8man content where you have to manage your mana depending of your co-heal

But i do follow the fact that a healer dpsing is not mandatory
Just frustrating to see them standing near you acting as heal bot XD

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Good advice : a DPS who go crazy eat aoe/cleave or stay far away from you, must die as painfully as possible. I have enough mana to heal the tank and unavoidable aoe on the group, not one idiot player playing around xP

[Malicewolf]

Good advice : a DPS who go crazy eat aoe/cleave or stay far away from you, must die as painfully as possible. I have enough mana to heal the tank and unavoidable aoe on the group, not one idiot player playing around xP

Here's the issue with that logic... Your DPS goes down (yes, for their own silly antics), that means the PARTY's DPS is lowered overall. This means it will take longer regardless to get through a dungeon/raid. A healer or SMN must then swiftcast raise, which then uses up a good chunk of MP. Probably 2 or 3 cure's worth. Those 2 or 3 cures probably could of kept that DPS up in the first place. I'd hardly call that productive. It's one thing to learn a lesson, it's another for the whole group to suffer for that lesson to be learned.

[Odett]

Simple point. Lets say I'm healing, but I'm throwing in Aero and Stone of whichever level is available. I'm using virus, and as needed even sleeping targets. Everynow and again, i get off a couple of Holy's. But, for whatever reason I don't have MP to burn, or there isn't time, and I fall back to straight healing. Who are you to decide if there is plenty of time for me to DPS? White Mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

That's not the issue at hand, though. No one is arguing that you must DPS all the time, and it's completely normal if you're conservative with your MP management for the first pull of a dungeon just so you can gauge your group, see if the tank uses cooldowns correctly, see if DPS dodge AoE's. Even if you're DPSing a lot, and you feel like you're going to run out of MP, like you've stated, it's the smart move to stop DPSing because MP management is your job. A lot of people, however, pop Shroud way too late, and Assize does instantly restore a portion of your MP, so WHM does not play like it did in ARR. Pop a Divine Seal, Asylum, and Regen, and the passive healing that your tank will be getting will be really nice, freeing you up to do other things. It's also a lot easier as a WHM now to throw out an "oh shit!" heal coming right out of Cleric Stance with the inclusion of Tetragrammaton into their toolkit, which is an OtGCd heal.We're mainly talking about healers who avoid DPSing like it's the plague, to the point where they throw a heal every 10 seconds or heal bomb you every time you fall below 95% HP, and both are extremely lazy and no one should be encouraging that playstyle.

Here's the issue with that logic... Your DPS goes down (yes, for their own silly antics), that means the PARTY's DPS is lowered overall. This means it will take longer regardless to get through a dungeon/raid. A healer or SMN must then swiftcast raise, which then uses up a good chunk of MP. Probably 2 or 3 cure's worth. Those 2 or 3 cures probably could of kept that DPS up in the first place. I'd hardly call that productive. It's one thing to learn a lesson, it's another for the whole group to suffer for that lesson to be learned.

Tough love is sometimes needed. It is not a healer's responsibility to babysit a DPS who doesn't dodge, just like it's not that DPS's right to hold their healer hostage. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

[Malicewolf]

Tough love is sometimes needed. It is not a healer's responsibility to babysit a DPS who doesn't dodge, just like it's not that DPS's right to hold their healer hostage. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

Not saying to babysit, but to simply let them die when you have the opportunity to save fairly easily, it's not worth it overall. MOST AoE's will not 1 shot a DPS. Just put a regen on them, maybe 1 cure if your tank is pretty topped off at the moment. That will save a silly DPS standing in AoE's 90% of the time. If they continue running into AoE's before the regen can bring their hp back up and your tank is needing attention, then yea, sure. But unless your DPS is literally doing pretty much nothing, he will bring in more DPS than you as a healer can do, even if you didn't need to heal. For those who want to "teach a lesson" the only thing you're doing by such is prolonging your torment by making things take longer.

[Reinha]

For people who play a role charged with healing, it's ironic how little you care for those putting healing first.

But, for whatever reason I don't have MP to burn, or there isn't time, and I fall back to straight healing. Who are you to decide if there is plenty of time for me to DPS? White Mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

Ok first of all, stop with the strawman. I think you can do better than that. Nobody is saying that a healer should do damage at the expense of keeping people alive and keeping enough mp to do so. Nobody's saying that healing doesn't come first. I also don't see anyone trying to micromanage when and what healers should damage. What I do see being said is that healers ought to do some damage instead of standing there idling like a statue when no damage is incoming. As much I'd love for there to be something to heal in dungeons, that's not how the game works and no amount of stubborn standing-around-doing-nothing-while-others-do-the-work is going to change that.

The fact that you included your own dps as the reason to run out of mp in dungeons shows that even you don't think healing alone uses all of your mp reserve. Mp is not a reason to not touch Cleric Stance even once in a dungeon run. In the whole dungeon. There are no dungeons where it's even possible for DDs to stand in stupid 100% of the time so that point is also moot. You don't need to heal when the tank is tanking one remaining mob and no aoes are hurting the group. Or when a boss is channeling/casting an ability without hurting anyone (Brace on the last boss of Antitower or Cure IV on the last boss in LCoA Hardmode for example). These are just examples and a good healer will recognize the right moments to contribute. There is always time to not be lazy in the current dungeons.

To prove that mp and time are bad excuses, I ran Lost City of Amdapor Hard as a WHM wearing only my weapon, chest, pants and boots which brought me down to 76 average item level. My piety and healing potency were both reduced by a third. The tank was wearing the highest level freely farmable gear, i.e. 200 left side. I was still able to do some damage in every trash pull and boss fight without anyone dying. It was so laughably easy I don't know what the devs where thinking. I cba running it again but I'm pretty sure it would be possible to do it with just a weapon. If I can do it so undergeared as the job that has to watch their mp the most, then that's proof enough that anyone at the minimum item level or higher can also do it mathematically speaking. It's just a matter of wanting to step up from the bare minimum contribution just like damage dealers and tanks have a choice to do more than just their 123 combo.