Please Add no bonus option for PF

[MeridaQ]

So it seems people have had a lot of PF issues, so my suggestion is after pfing things for a while take note of the good players and create a LS to farm content and then PF when you feel like helping. I join PFs to help and I create them to teach, I typically farm content with friends. Make friends grow the community.

[Ashkendor]

when in fact many people with bonus tend to know the fight a lot better (due to spending hours and many parties practicing intrinsic details of the fight).

In this thread, we learn that people that have cleared the fight haven't actually practiced it as much as people that haven't?

This argument makes no sense. Once you've cleared, every single clear after that is further practice at those "intrinsic details of the fight." Every clear builds muscle memory, and every clear has the potential to reveal new little tricks and ways to handle mechanics and potentially salvage botched runs (cause hey we're all human and we all screw up even once we have something on farm). Are there people that get their one clear and then stop? I'm sure there are a few. But to say someone that hasn't cleared the fight potentially knows it better than someone that has it on farm doesn't exactly ring true to me. I know it took several clears for me to really get it down pat as far as the order of mechanics to where I'm not going "ok, what's next?"

TL;DR - Bonus does not equal skill-less, no bonus does not = totally competent.

Nobody is saying it does. I'm not sure how many more times we have to reiterate that. Yes, there are incompetent players that were carried to their clear and there are competent players that just can't get the right party together. Those are a minority, though. Generally speaking, someone that's cleared the fight is simply more prepared to farm it than someone that hasn't. The filter we're asking for is meant for that majority, but nothing can cover every eventuality. Players that are in the non-cleared but skilled category would still be free to either send tells to party leaders asking if they can join, or make their own learning/clear parties.

[Singularity]

It's my contention that the number of people who do this are already a small minority of the whole population.

I agree here. I don't have data but I don't think this community is so rotten that a large proportion of players try to get their clears by exploiting others.

Some PFs exist without issue.
Some PFs have a dishonesty-problem.
Of the PFs that have a dishonesty-problem, it's usually only 1 dink who's trying to sneak in.

Do you dispute this data?

This data would suggest that the number of dishonest people trying to sneak into PFs is about 10% of the population. (1 in 8 is 12.5 %)

The logical statements are valid and I agree with them, the 10% statistic however does not follow. It relies on the additional assumptions that 100% of the population uses PF and that the people trying to sneak into farm parties are all different people. One person can potentially ruin many PF groups trying to steal a clear. In any case, the proportion of the entire population that is trying to obtain clears they don't deserve is almost certainly less than 10%.

However, when evaluating a potential change, one must consider the effort required as well as the potential impact. If this option would take a month to implement, I would say definitely not - it's not worth the time. If it would take a week, I'd want to spend an hour or two getting really good estimates of how much good it would do before deciding. But this is the sort of thing that I would expect can probably (code architecture permitting) be done by a single developer in less than a day (indeed, we've already spent longer discussing it than it would take to implement). I would contend therefore, that it is worth the time even if it only affects a minority of PF groups.

Keep in mind, that a dishonest person can still get an eventual clear and still be dishonest and join your no-bonus blocked PF eventually anyway. Since even a lucky clear is "inevitable" this no-bonus PF block mathematically does nothing except delay the issue by a few days until the dishonest person can get a clear and sneak in anyway.

How are they getting that eventual clear though? Perhaps they get carried by friends or buy a clear from a sale group. Both those options exist now though, but not every dishonest player has access to them (either don't have friends that are able to carry or can't afford sale groups' prices). These dishonest players that can't use one of the other paths would be effectively stymied. As a result, some of the dishonest players that currently sneak into farm groups (in fact I would argue most since groups that can carry current content are rare) would be completely prevented from doing so, and that is an improvement worth having.

[Dante_V]

I just blacklist people who do this honestly. I have no issue letting them in if they are honest but dishonesty is not something I will reward in any situation. I think really all this suggestion would do is force people to ask if they can join before attempting to do it dishonestly.

[Aquaslash]

It also makes a big different if it blocks just one person who would have been an amazing asset to your team from joining up.

Stop everything you're saying and think about what I'm about to ask you very carefully.

Why would a person who hasn't cleared join a FARM party?

By definition, someone who has something on farm has cleared multiple times. If you don't have a clear, you literally don't meet the requirements for a farming party.

Furthermore, you and all of your ilk have yet to answer why these oh so skilled players can't make their own parties for clearing

[Andrea]

Furthermore, you and all of your ilk have yet to answer why these oh so skilled players can't make their own parties for clearing

Oh they have, they just keep saying that sometimes it takes to long to form parties. As if those with a clear all logged on to be magically in parties.

[Pompoen]

I'm failing to understand how is there still opposition towards this o_x Its pretty much as Aquaslash said: why would someone who hasn't cleared join a party that's there to farm? and or what is stopping them from making their own parties? The option for no bonus isn't going to stop them from making their own parties or using DF (and yes EX primals can be cleared with DF; have done it myself at least with those before HW, Im not that far ahead) and as Andrea said, if the issue is just that it takes long to form a party---well it---really just takes a while overall to form a party. Not everyone feels like farming, not everyone feels like clearing, not everyone feels like learning---so in all those aspects it can and might take a bit to get your party going but for that you just need patience and time. It is still no valid excuse to jump into a farm party and lie when it states 'no bonus' or not just sending a tell to the PF leader if you know the fight @__@;

[Dzian]

One thing that amuses me is you see learning parties, where you get the impatient guys that will rage quit after 10-15 minutes or 2-3 wipes.
you see clear parties, where people have come close to beating the fight. kind of the next step from a learning party logically
then however you see farm parties, where people have finally cleared it once and now declare themselves uber professional and have the fight "mastered"

never see a party that sits somewhere between clear and farm.. people clear it once and suddenly assume there's gods at the content.

personally most issues I encounter in farm parties come from lack of communication. everyone just assumes everyone is doing the exact same strategy and that's often just not the case. common example seems to be the mt expecting ot tank swap a mechanic while the ot thinks mt will just cooldown through it. bam! dead people. or the reverse where the mt isn't expecting a swap and the ot moves in for one and bam both tanks eat a massive debuff.

or going back to arr t9 farms were horrendous in my experience. some folks would stack centre expecting golems to be dropped on edges leaving that nice little "safe" area in the centre. other folks would stand on edges expecting golems to be dropped in circles, then you see a golem in the circle and one at the edge too close together merge wipe, everyone rages cos the other guy was doing it wrong..

same in bis ex where healers don't get the dragon killers / generator cos they think a ranged dps /tank will. dps won't get them cos they think the healers will before you know it islands at 50% and you haven't even started smashing the carapace.... wipe then rage....

it's almost as if people believe there is only one way to clear a fight and that everyone has done the exact same strategy as them. I wonder how many wipes would be prevented if people took a minute to make sure everyone had the same strategy / plan of attack