Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

[Lexia]

Let me change the title for you:
Using all of the skills / actions you are able to use on your job is completely normal.

A more comedic title would be "yes it ok to be a second class black mage" Least a whm you do, sch do have a lot more abilities to use and not sure about ast though.

[dinnertime]

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

Well yeah I was actually wrong about the comparison now that I think about it because it'll depend on things like the distance and duration of the mob getting near that person (unless it's a ranged attack) and there might be no clarification to who and when they're attacking since I assume this isn't as scripted as FFXIV's encounters then yeah, I'm wrong.
Taking some reflection, I have to agree that FFXIV's fights is awfully scripted sadly but said it wasn't predictable because it depends on the party's performance. I guess I'm wrong again.

I don't really have a problem with fights these days lacking the opportunity to heal and I don't really mind DPSing as a healer most of the time either, I enjoy doing both but to be honest I enjoy DPSing more because healing is just snooze-fest easy anyway. Unexpected damage would be pretty surprising and I can see the fun in that.
I mean, I can see why people would want rather heal more since pretty much it's been stressed that they're playing healers for it, it's just that healing is rather boring in most encounters so far, so I find more fun in DPSing.

[MomomiMomi]

I disagree, even in raids and such, DPS from healers is very much a thing. Further, healing is way too predictable. I know exactly which person will be hit when for how much at any given point. Healing in Guild Wars 1 was much more involved and interesting even in just the open world (I use 'open world' loosely here as technically everything was instanced). To elaborate, a proactive measure in Guild Wars 1 would be - Oh i see a big ass mob running towards our caster, I'll start casting a big heal on the caster. A proactive measure in FFXIV is oh it's 2:43 into the fight, let's adlo the ranged DPS.

Oh, I know that dps from healers is a thing. I was just saying that that's where you actually have to heal. I absolutely agree with you that healing is too predictable, and also agree with the other person who was saying healing is too strong. These are "problems" with healing in this game. I personally don't like these aspects of healers. But I do like healer being able to dps as well, so I'm not entirely complaining about it. At least not in dungeons.

[AngelicSence]

In fact, I read his post entirely differently as you did ?

I think it depends what you believe and which side you defend. But let me know how different.

[Kosmos992k]

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

[Kaurie]

Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

The thing is, the 2 new dungeons aren't really like this. The ilvl we all went into them at was 210, but they were scaled even easier than the last set of dungeons. Healing them is akin to healing Copperbell or Toto Rak normal, I'd say - where Haukke Manor is slightly more difficult.

[MomomiMomi]

Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

Level appropriate. See Kaurie's post. Also, all the early level dungeons require extremely little healing until you get to Brayflox. And even then, they don't require much.

Once you get to level 50 dungeons, the only reason they require much healing at all is because of excessively large pulls. And you can still dps in those!

[Kosmos992k]

Level appropriate. See Kaurie's post. Also, all the early level dungeons require extremely little healing until you get to Brayflox. And even then, they don't require much.

Once you get to level 50 dungeons, the only reason they require much healing at all is because of excessively large pulls. And you can still dps in those!

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I don't think you can do without a healer in any of the dungeons starting with Brayflox, and doing the others can be difficult without a healer. Perhaps a group of 4 from a raid static who execute at a very high level might pull it off, but I think you're extremely over-confident to make a blanket statement like those when you consider average players..

The thing is, the 2 new dungeons aren't really like this. The ilvl we all went into them at was 210, but they were scaled even easier than the last set of dungeons. Healing them is akin to healing Copperbell or Toto Rak normal, I'd say - where Haukke Manor is slightly more difficult.

I see that they require ilvl 180, so you went in at ilvl 210 which is 30 ilvls higher than the target. You're overgeared before you even get in there. I agree that's is a problem with the design, and if they are scaled to be easier than the prior dungeons, that simply makes the problem worse.

What I am having a problem with is people saying that healing is not required in dungeons. All things being equal, if players are not overgeared, there is a healing requirement in most, if not all dungeons. Even if they are scaled poorly for their ilvl. There's also an element of player capability as well. If we're talking about good players, then the healing requirement may be lighter, but with average or worse players, the healing requirement will be apparent.

[MomomiMomi]

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I don't think you can do without a healer in any of the dungeons starting with Brayflox, and doing the others can be difficult without a healer. Perhaps a group of 4 from a raid static who execute at a very high level might pull it off, but I think you're extremely over-confident to make a blanket statement like those when you consider average players..

It has little to do with the skill of the players and more to do with the strength of our heals. Cure heals about 50%+ of the tank's HP for most of the early game. It takes a pretty long time for their HP to drop that low unless if you're making large pulls.

SCH can actually solo the low level dungeons without even needing to cast a heal.

[Kosmos992k]

It has little to do with the skill of the players and more to do with the strength of our heals. Cure heals about 50%+ of the tank's HP for most of the early game. It takes a pretty long time for their HP to drop that low unless if you're making large pulls.

SCH can actually solo the low level dungeons without even needing to cast a heal.

Hmmmm...I don't think so. We're talking apples and oranges. I don't think you would have been able to persuade any player of FFXIV that heals were not needed in the dungeons of ARR when we first encountered them.

Scholar soloing a dungeon in level appropriate gear without a heal? Other than an exceptional player running a very low level dungeon, I don't think so at all.