Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

[Kaurie]

It's something that I actually love about healing in this game about being a healer. If you don't like it, well.... Sad I guess. But at the same time, like every other MMO out there is already catered to you at that point. So I can't say that I feel all that much sympathy for you because ONE game happens to cater more towards me and others in terms of healers roles.

Interesting. I came to FFXIV solely because it was one of the few games I could find with a dedicated healer in a trinity form. Outside of WoW, this has been pretty hard to find. Tera and Wildstar both had it, but I found healing in those games to be frustrating rather than fun. Guild Wars 2 removed healers entirely and every one is just a glorified DPS with a self heal skill on a long cooldown (though I think they've sort-of added a healer with the recent expansion). WoW is really the only game I've played with a proper healer in recent years. Yes, I could go to WoW, and I may. However, I came to FFXIV because it advertised a similar trinity system that WoW has.

Perhaps you can give me some examples of great MMO's that cater to healers having to keep on their toes with healing?

are you trying to defend this poor game design? yes, at the moment healing is not really rquired. and that's BAD game design in a game with a trinity. as a healer i want something to HEAL, not dpsing 99% of the time.

it's like square has forgotten to built content with healers in mind...

I am not promoting or defending anything in the quote you provided. I was simply providing an example to explain the state of things in current expert dungeons. However, if you'd like to know my opinion(s):

- The current expert roulettes are a joke for difficulty, and I do not understand why they did this
- I play a healer to heal and help my team through clutch situations. Nothing in this game supports this feeling
- If it came down to afki'ing through a dungeon or DPSing through a dungeon on my SCH, I choose DPS
- If it came down to DPSing through a dungeon, or having damage output approximately 10-15x as much as it is now, while also being sporadic in who is needing heals (requiring thought, reflex, reactive and proactive measures etc) then I would choose healing [This would also require all healing skills MP be reduced, PIE be increased or some combination]

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

I disagree, even in raids and such, DPS from healers is very much a thing. Further, healing is way too predictable. I know exactly which person will be hit when for how much at any given point. Healing in Guild Wars 1 was much more involved and interesting even in just the open world (I use 'open world' loosely here as technically everything was instanced). To elaborate, a proactive measure in Guild Wars 1 would be - Oh i see a big ass mob running towards our caster, I'll start casting a big heal on the caster. A proactive measure in FFXIV is oh it's 2:43 into the fight, let's adlo the ranged DPS.

It's not bad game design. Healers are there to keep your HP high up and remove detrimental effects whenever necessary. That's mainly their job and if they're good at it then they're healing fine, but do you really have to heal all the time when everyone in the party is in good shape or not in dangerously low health? No.

The bad game design is that players neither get detrimental effects, nor hurt in the current expert dungeons. The person quoted me, where I noted that I cast one spell for the purpose of healing someone for an entire 24 minute dungeon.



TLDR: Healing in this game is easy. Healers can put out amazing DPS. If you don't DPS as a healer in this game, you're doing it wrong and you're a bad player. This system sucks, please make healers heal.

[dinnertime]

TLDR: Healing in this game is easy. Healers can put out amazing DPS. If you don't DPS as a healer in this game, you're doing it wrong and you're a bad player. This system sucks, please make healers heal.

You're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.

If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.

Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.

No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

[Tint]

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on.

my problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.

i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.

yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric, so something HAS changed...

[dinnertime]

my problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.

i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.

yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric.

I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

I may have been a little harsh about what I've said though that healers should be DPS and that i'm rubbing it on people who are opposed to it. Like Kallera said, it's something optional for healers to do but I just believe not doing it at all is just incompetence on the healer's part. Still, you're free not to contribute to DPS.
I actually enjoy DPSing as a healer and keeping the party up simultaneously so I dunno why others can't feel the same, honestly.

[Kaurie]

I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

Again. It has nothing to do with tank changes. The encounters put out less damage per second. Having more VIT doesn't make you take less damage, it just adds a higher buffer before you have to heal. These dungeons don't require you to heal, because the damage per second to the tank is approximately 1/3 of what it was previously. Coincidentally, Eos does 1/3 of my healing, so I am set.

[Kaurie]

You're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.

Well that would be quite idiotic.

Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.

I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.

?

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

Unfortunate truths here.

[dinnertime]

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

No I am not implying you are new at all. While most fights we have are scripted, it doesn't mean it will always go as planned with the party with some people who would make mistakes like for example: a party member killing too much adds simultaneously in Sephirot Ex or getting debuffs, and there are certainly some random mechanics as well.
By the way they example you gave is just as predictable as most fights in FFXIV if you know the monster is getting near a certain party member. It's comparable to cast timers.

Well that would be quite idiotic.

Then don't hope for it.

I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

Most of what I've said isn't really directed to you specifically but it's related to the thread discussion here.

?

Same as above. People believe healers shouldn't be called a healer if they're advised to DPS.

Unfortunate truths here.

It's unfortunate that you are opposed to this.

why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô

Because there's a specific time for them, same with damage spells.

[Kaurie]

snip.

Ah OK that makes more sense. I felt your reply to my post didn't make a lot of sense. That said, your points make a lot of sense.

I agree in the current game that healers should DPS and if you are not then you are playing poorly.

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer. I know that I can do this exact rotation as a SCH in Seph EX every time:

-Adlo/Depoy or Succor prepull, Cleric Stance
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swiftcast Shadowflare
-E-Drain
-Aero
-E-Drain
-Cleric Off
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Succor
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Sacred Soil
-Stack/Aetherflow
-Bio II
-Cleric off
-Rouse***
-Succor
-Whispering Dawn
-Adlo Tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank (tank buster)
-Cleric on
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swift/Shadowflare
-E-drain
-Aero
-E-drain
-Cleric off
-move for circles
-move back in
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Bio II
-Sacred Soil
-Aetherflow
-Cleric off
-Succor

(NOTE for above rotation, I do fit in quite a few Broils, but that I don't have counted and just fit them in where I can)

repeat from *** until add phase

etc etc.. I mean, every time, without fail. There is like 0 AI, 0 unexpected damage, 0 variation.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

[dinnertime]

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

Well yeah I was actually wrong about the comparison now that I think about it because it'll depend on things like the distance and duration of the mob getting near that person (unless it's a ranged attack) and there might be no clarification to who and when they're attacking since I assume this isn't as scripted as FFXIV's encounters then yeah, I'm wrong.
Taking some reflection, I have to agree that FFXIV's fights is awfully scripted sadly but said it wasn't predictable because it depends on the party's performance. I guess I'm wrong again.

I don't really have a problem with fights these days lacking the opportunity to heal and I don't really mind DPSing as a healer most of the time either, I enjoy doing both but to be honest I enjoy DPSing more because healing is just snooze-fest easy anyway. Unexpected damage would be pretty surprising and I can see the fun in that.
I mean, I can see why people would want rather heal more since pretty much it's been stressed that they're playing healers for it, it's just that healing is rather boring in most encounters so far, so I find more fun in DPSing.

[Tint]

I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô