Tanks are still taking STR accessories.

[SpookyGhost]

Or option 3: realise str tanks were never really a problem in dungeons and casual content and this was a very very unneeded change.

Which wasn't why they changed STR tanks in the first place, they kinda sorta created these whole Fending accessories that a large amount of people didn't even use and instead tried to get Slaying, intended for MNK/DRG. Anyone who did STR tanking did so because it was optimal, but you have to take that extra leap to realize it was bad design. STR tanking should have never been a thing, it was ridiculously good and allowed you to push content much earlier than intended. They overlooked it for 2 years, we should be happy we even got away with it for this long.

[Bikkusu]

Which wasn't why they changed STR tanks in the first place, they kinda sorta created these whole Fending accessories that a large amount of people didn't even use and instead tried to get Slaying, intended for MNK/DRG. Anyone who did STR tanking did so because it was optimal, but you have to take that extra leap to realize it was bad design. STR tanking should have never been a thing, it was ridiculously good and allowed you to push content much earlier than intended. They overlooked it for 2 years, we should be happy we even got away with it for this long.

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

No. That is something only some of the players wanted. Others wanted to be incredibly tough. Quite a few players begrudgingly followed the strength meta even though they did not feel it was "right."

Rolling with it was also just going to make things worse and worse. They needed to do something in order fix it or the game was going to break in the future.

Strength Warriors were overmitigating because their self-heals were 25% to 30% stronger than intended throwing tank balance off.
The damage output and hp gaps between Vit and Str builds were making progression impossible to balance and they were growing.
Fending Accessories were being considered useless/trash drops and crafted accessories 60 ilevels below were considered semi BiS for tanks.

All of these problems and more needed to be fixed.

[Bikkusu]

------
mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.
------
Healing is not mitigation.

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

The only class that needed to be fixed was Paladin, which could have easily be done by adjusting rates on shield oath.

[JackFross]

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

Clemency is still shit, let's not pretend like a spell that costs 2/5 of your mana bar is anywhere close to broken, especially with how significantly it was nerfed with the tank adjustments.

The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

They were.

Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

The new ratios were done in order to create tiers of damage, which were incredibly blurry before 3.2.

You had MNK>BLM>DRG>NIN>SMN>BRD>=MCH>=WAR=DRK>PLD>[heals]
They shifted this slightly in 3.2 to widen the gap between the bottom DPS characters and tanks. So rather than having MCH deal ~1300 and WAR deal ~1200 on the same fight, those numbers would be more like 1300 and 950, making the disparity actually notable. I main Paladin on my alt and had been waiting for 3.2 to decide if I'd continue to or I'd go about gearing my DRG there, too. I decided on PLD. The decreased damage isn't an issue. All of the tank stances got increased enmity, and with a few minor upgrades, tanks are getting right back to where they were pre-3.2. Those same upgrades on the dps are shooting them up another 100-200 dps, keeping the huge buffer between them and tanks.


The "choice" still exists for Fending/Slaying accessories, yes, but they've done such a good job of making Fending more attractive than Slaying (both because Fending naturally has more main stat gains than Slaying and because Fending works twice - damage AND defense) that I don't think it's an issue. I haven't encountered a full slaying tank in DF yet. Hell, I'm the ONLY tank in DF I've seen using ANY (read: 1) Slaying accessories (since the 220 Fending Ring is h o t - g a r b a g e.)

So, in short:



//EDIT: Decided to read back a few pages, because I'm a masochist.

There is no DR on critical hit rate, the rate changes as you level up.

Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

The thing is, you do know when you'll need that extra HP. The answer is: Never. You've already got your cushion, more than your cushion.

The question isn't whether or not you need it, the question is "Why would you sacrifice extra cushion that gives you marginally less attack power than the alternative for negligible gains in a secondary stat that will more than likely never be seen in any meaningful way?"

This is now a secondary stat argument, which will benefit you more.

Yes, and your argument is as follows. Correct me if I'm wrong:
Trading 2400 health for 80 points of crit, because it will increase how often my Equilibrium crits, will increase my survivability much more than the 2400 base health would have; I don't need that extra health to survive any incoming damage in any content I am currently playing with my Warrior. All Warriors should be considering this.
( This argument directly involves the flat STR v VIT debate, since you address the health change, but I won't crucify you for that. c: )

And to that, I let you argue against yourself:

Healing is not mitigation.

Because, you're right. Bonus healing is NOT mitigation. Getting a lucky crit on your Equilibrium is super good, but let me actually break this down for you.

775 Crit = 15% Crit Rate
854 Crit = 17% Crit Rate

So, you will, on average, get crits on approximately 13% of the Equilibrium casts that you currently use for healing (which shouldn't be very many, let's be honest) that do not *already* crit. This of course doesn't take into account that Equilibrium and Internal Release share the same cooldown of 60s, so if you are doing what you say you are and trying to maximize your crits on Equilibrium, these two skills will always be used together, which makes these numbers significantly different.

You're now comparing 25% to 27% - and would now be getting a Crit on 8% of the Equilibrium casts that you use for healing which do not already Crit.


If you honestly think that this negligible increase in critical hits from a skill (which, by your own admission, is in no way an actual mitigation skill) will actually be more beneficial than the health you sacrifice to gain this much crit, you're kind of dumb.

[Bikkusu]

They were.

Sorry, no. What they did was not take those into account at all. They reworked a system that wasn't broken in order to give Paladin a role in it.

No, the new ratios were not done to create tiers of damage.

They want you to play a role. They have stated this numerous times. They don't want healers to DPS so they took accuracy away (healers are melding accuracy onto their gear). They don't want tanks to DPS so they took damage away and said this is not a significant portion of their calculations for fights (no point in trying to gear for damage at all). They want DPS to DPS, yet they created a class that relies solely on procs for burst. So no, it isn't about tiers. It's about them trying to force a new way of playing a game onto a community (CUSTOMERS!) that doesn't want that.

Anyone who is gearing with just vitality in mind doesn't know what their numbers mean. When was the last time a Final Fantasy game had a clearly defined role for a character that you could not pick to min-max? When was it you had a class where you could not blur the lines of what it did?

Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

No. No, this is not the definition of a diminishing return, especially when the Critical Hit Rate also increases the Critical Hit Damage/Heal.

A linear increase is a linear increase. A diminishing return is when you start to lose, or plateau as you gain more; this doesn't happen if you're going up at a flat rate.

[Ultimatecalibur]

------
mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.
------
Healing is not mitigation.

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

Wrong. Self-heals are mitigation. Be they from Regeneration, Self Healing actions or Drain effects.

If you recover 2000 hp every 20 seconds you are reducing the amount (mitigating) that needs to be healed by outside sources by 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds. If you are taking less than 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds you are mitigating all damage and are therefore immortal as long as you can maintain your self-healing.

If the game is balanced around you mitigating 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds and you mitigated 2600 hp worth of damage in that time period; you are mitigating 30% more damage than intended.

[Bikkusu]

Wrong. Self-heals are mitigation. Be they from Regeneration, Self Healing actions or Drain effects.

No. Heals are heals. Mitigation is the ability to make damage not happen. Parry was the only mitigation stat shared by tanks and it was amazing when I could make 35% of the damage just not happen. This was broken, and given that it was affected by strength, will most likely stay broken. The only viable forms of mitigation are a paladin's shield (block), shield oath, and grit.

Heals are heals.

That said, back to the topic.

To reiterate, we aren't discussing a vitality versus strength meta any longer because this was broken making it a nonviable construct. DPS for tanks is out completely, so stop imagining this is about DPS increase through any means. There's only one secondary stat (after reaching accuracy cap) and that benefits tanks any longer and it is Critical Hit Rate.

Fending accessories don't offer any true bonus for this stat. The extra vitality from the accessories are not providing any true benefit to the tank when you look at the numbers being tossed around ind Midas Savage.

If a dexterity build allowed for a higher dodge chance then I'd be arguing for this because dodge is great form of mitigation that makes damage just not happen; however this is completely random.

If parry allowed to drop magic damage down, then I'd argue for a parry build.

Neither of these above statements are true though, so I argue that the critical hit rate from the slaying accessories outweighss the 2000 missing HP.

[JackFross]

To reiterate, we aren't discussing a vitality versus strength meta any longer because this was broken making it a nonviable construct. DPS for tanks is out completely, so stop imagining this is about DPS increase through any means. There's only one secondary stat (after reaching accuracy cap) and that benefits tanks any longer and it is Critical Hit Rate.

Neither of these above statements are true though, so I argue that the critical hit rate from the slaying accessories outweighss the 2000 missing HP.

Right, it's basically a non-issue, since whichever way you move the stats, your outgoing dps is gonna be essentially the same. That's super accurate, to be honest. Arguing tank dps "doesn't matter anymore" is ignorant though, so can we stop that? You're talking about min-maxing literally 2% crit rate difference for a skill you have a base 25% crit rate for, and you're trying to say in the same breath that min-maxing dps (in actually measurable/visible chunks) by stance dancing is pointless, because "tank dps doesn't matter" - so please pick a side. Do these tiny, essentially pointless, differences in secondary stats matter or do they not?

Because saying "Tank dps doesn't matter so why bother trying to maximize it" actively works against your incredibly more insignificant argument.


I already disproved your claim mathematically in another post. So please stop spouting the same bullshit in post after post without any thought for the truth of the matter. Let me break this down for you.

Equilibrium is a 60s cooldown. Let's assume that you use it exactly on cooldown AND get the full heal from it every time with 0% overheal, even when you crit it. (Anyone who has ever played this game knows that this situation has about a 0% chance of happening, because healers exist.)

A5S is a 7-8 minute fight, so you will get 7-8 Equilibrium casts. Assuming you say "lol tank dps doesn't matter" so you use Internal Release on cooldown to buff Equilibrium since that's the only skill you have where crits matter because your dps doesn't matter anymore, you have a 25% critical hit rate. Out of 7-8 casts, you will crit (on average) two of them. If you buff your crit from 770 to 850 like you suggest, your crit rate on that increases to 27%. You will NOW crit (on average) two of them. So, uh, congratulations on sacrificing 3000 health for a literally invisible gain in the one area you were doing it to get a gain in.


If this explanation doesn't make you realize how god-damned worthless it is to sacrifice health in order to increase how often you crit with Equilibrium, you're beyond my help and I and everyone else need to just give up trying to convince you. You can keep on being a bad tank who doesn't understand that:

Skill Speed at a certain point will give this Warrior in question 9 gcds in each Berserk (a skill you probably don't use since your dps doesn't matter anymore), which is a massive gain to your overall damage output (sorry, I know your dps doesn't matter anymore, because the difference between a WAR doing 1000 dps and one doing 400 dps isn't worth mentioning).
Determination not only boosts every offensive skill that you use, but it ALSO boosts every self-heal that the Warrior has access to (aside from Thrill of Battle, which I'll get into in a bit), since they're all directly related to how much damage you can do.

Thrill of Battle heals you by a flat 20%. Cutting out 3000 health cuts that health restoration (and addition) by 600. Please note that this health buffer is exactly the same amount of mitigation as Rampart, except... it scales with how much health you have. More health = more mitigation, since it creates a pillow that the hits have to cut down before they actually hurt you.


The marginal gain afforded by 80 Crit is flat out beaten by having 3000 more health and stacking a more balanced spread of secondaries alongside more Attack Power. You are gimping every single Equilibrium in order to invisibly increase the chance for your Equilibrium to crit. Please stop arguing that this is a proper course of action, because you are wrong and I am tired of repeating the same arguments as you ignore every single one of them.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

When it was first announced Reddit almost unanimously agreed the change was necessary. The FFXIV subreddit may be more divisive than this forum. You do not speak for everyone, stop assuming you do.