Tanks are still taking STR accessories.

[HoodRat]

Giving up 2300 HP for a slightly better chance at getting about 2300 HP more from a crit Equilibrium is just unfathomable, I just assumed I misunderstood.

Some ideas are good, some ideas are bad, and some are just...I don't even know how to describe this.

[Bikkusu]

------
mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.
------
Healing is not mitigation.

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

The only class that needed to be fixed was Paladin, which could have easily be done by adjusting rates on shield oath.

[JackFross]

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

Clemency is still shit, let's not pretend like a spell that costs 2/5 of your mana bar is anywhere close to broken, especially with how significantly it was nerfed with the tank adjustments.

The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

They were.

Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

The new ratios were done in order to create tiers of damage, which were incredibly blurry before 3.2.

You had MNK>BLM>DRG>NIN>SMN>BRD>=MCH>=WAR=DRK>PLD>[heals]
They shifted this slightly in 3.2 to widen the gap between the bottom DPS characters and tanks. So rather than having MCH deal ~1300 and WAR deal ~1200 on the same fight, those numbers would be more like 1300 and 950, making the disparity actually notable. I main Paladin on my alt and had been waiting for 3.2 to decide if I'd continue to or I'd go about gearing my DRG there, too. I decided on PLD. The decreased damage isn't an issue. All of the tank stances got increased enmity, and with a few minor upgrades, tanks are getting right back to where they were pre-3.2. Those same upgrades on the dps are shooting them up another 100-200 dps, keeping the huge buffer between them and tanks.


The "choice" still exists for Fending/Slaying accessories, yes, but they've done such a good job of making Fending more attractive than Slaying (both because Fending naturally has more main stat gains than Slaying and because Fending works twice - damage AND defense) that I don't think it's an issue. I haven't encountered a full slaying tank in DF yet. Hell, I'm the ONLY tank in DF I've seen using ANY (read: 1) Slaying accessories (since the 220 Fending Ring is h o t - g a r b a g e.)

So, in short:



//EDIT: Decided to read back a few pages, because I'm a masochist.

There is no DR on critical hit rate, the rate changes as you level up.

Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

The thing is, you do know when you'll need that extra HP. The answer is: Never. You've already got your cushion, more than your cushion.

The question isn't whether or not you need it, the question is "Why would you sacrifice extra cushion that gives you marginally less attack power than the alternative for negligible gains in a secondary stat that will more than likely never be seen in any meaningful way?"

This is now a secondary stat argument, which will benefit you more.

Yes, and your argument is as follows. Correct me if I'm wrong:
Trading 2400 health for 80 points of crit, because it will increase how often my Equilibrium crits, will increase my survivability much more than the 2400 base health would have; I don't need that extra health to survive any incoming damage in any content I am currently playing with my Warrior. All Warriors should be considering this.
( This argument directly involves the flat STR v VIT debate, since you address the health change, but I won't crucify you for that. c: )

And to that, I let you argue against yourself:

Healing is not mitigation.

Because, you're right. Bonus healing is NOT mitigation. Getting a lucky crit on your Equilibrium is super good, but let me actually break this down for you.

775 Crit = 15% Crit Rate
854 Crit = 17% Crit Rate

So, you will, on average, get crits on approximately 13% of the Equilibrium casts that you currently use for healing (which shouldn't be very many, let's be honest) that do not *already* crit. This of course doesn't take into account that Equilibrium and Internal Release share the same cooldown of 60s, so if you are doing what you say you are and trying to maximize your crits on Equilibrium, these two skills will always be used together, which makes these numbers significantly different.

You're now comparing 25% to 27% - and would now be getting a Crit on 8% of the Equilibrium casts that you use for healing which do not already Crit.


If you honestly think that this negligible increase in critical hits from a skill (which, by your own admission, is in no way an actual mitigation skill) will actually be more beneficial than the health you sacrifice to gain this much crit, you're kind of dumb.

[Bikkusu]

They were.

Sorry, no. What they did was not take those into account at all. They reworked a system that wasn't broken in order to give Paladin a role in it.

No, the new ratios were not done to create tiers of damage.

They want you to play a role. They have stated this numerous times. They don't want healers to DPS so they took accuracy away (healers are melding accuracy onto their gear). They don't want tanks to DPS so they took damage away and said this is not a significant portion of their calculations for fights (no point in trying to gear for damage at all). They want DPS to DPS, yet they created a class that relies solely on procs for burst. So no, it isn't about tiers. It's about them trying to force a new way of playing a game onto a community (CUSTOMERS!) that doesn't want that.

Anyone who is gearing with just vitality in mind doesn't know what their numbers mean. When was the last time a Final Fantasy game had a clearly defined role for a character that you could not pick to min-max? When was it you had a class where you could not blur the lines of what it did?

Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

No. No, this is not the definition of a diminishing return, especially when the Critical Hit Rate also increases the Critical Hit Damage/Heal.

A linear increase is a linear increase. A diminishing return is when you start to lose, or plateau as you gain more; this doesn't happen if you're going up at a flat rate.

[JackFross]

I knew you would actively ignore every piece in my post that outwardly refutes your incorrect points. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.

Sorry, no. What they did was not take those into account at all. They reworked a system that wasn't broken in order to give Paladin a role in it.

Warriors being +/- 1% from Bards and Machinists in Gordias is absolutely a problem, though? It's definitely broken?

I'm sorry you're upset that your numbers were nerfed, but none of the tanks were changed in any meaningful way outside of buffs (Grit/SwO/ShO no longer break combos). The damage change is absolutely meaningless, especially with the lower DPS requirements for new content. Tanks can still contribute, they just contribute less.

No, the new ratios were not done to create tiers of damage.

They absolutely were, though, and you literally *just* agreed to this in what you said next.

They want you to play a role.

T I E R S.

They don't want healers to DPS so they took accuracy away (healers are melding accuracy onto their gear).

T I E R S.

They don't want tanks to DPS so they took damage away and said this is not a significant portion of their calculations for fights (no point in trying to gear for damage at all).

T I E R S.

They want DPS to DPS, yet they created a class that relies solely on procs for burst.

If you rely on lucky procs for burst on Machinist, you're not playing the class right. Reload and Quick Reload are cooldowns you have to force procs when you want them for situations like Wildfire burst phases. Let's not blame the class because YOU can't play it.

So no, it isn't about tiers. It's about them trying to force a new way of playing a game onto a community (CUSTOMERS!) that doesn't want that.

If you don't like it, stop playing.
You're the only voice in this thread throwing a tantrum over these changes. The vast majority of tanks actually have brains and flat agree with the fact that tank damage was too high and the requirement to mitigate incoming damage consistently (read: tank stance) in fights was too low. They fixed this in 3.2.

Anyone who is gearing with just vitality in mind doesn't know what their numbers mean. When was the last time a Final Fantasy game had a clearly defined role for a character that you could not pick to min-max? When was it you had a class where you could not blur the lines of what it did?

I'm gearing with Vitality in mind. I'm getting (almost) exclusively fending accessories. I skipped the 220 Fending ring because it's absolute garbage (Parry/Sks nty) and am still running the 210 Gordian ring alongside my 220 Proto Midan Slaying ring.

So, like, stop changing your argument, basically? You were arguing one page ago about how "IT'S NOT DPS GUYS IT'S CRITS FOR EQUILIBRIUM WHICH I SHOULD BE MAINLY USING FOR TP" and now it's all about the deeps. Color me thoroughly confused.

(Also: FF1, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, FF12 IZJS, FF13 - not sure on the FF12 one, that's just the way I always read the info on it.)
(That's not including the Tactics series or any other non-numbered ones.)

No. No, this is not the definition of a diminishing return, especially when the Critical Hit Rate also increases the Critical Hit Damage/Heal.

A linear increase is a linear increase. A diminishing return is when you start to lose, or plateau as you gain more; this doesn't happen if you're going up at a flat rate.

Okay. I apologize. I thought my explanation might go over your head, so let me explain it in simpler terms.

A diminishing return is a situation in which adding more of a stat gives you less gains from that stat as the base value from which you are increasing gets higher. Critical Hit Rate is a multiplicative stat. It increases at a linear rate. This creates a curve that plateaus (slowly) as you increase the value. The more Crit you have, the less effective gains you get from increasing the stat further. Yes, it also increases critical damage, and this absolutely helps to stem the curve and make it slower! It's absolutely true that Crit is higher weight than Det for every Job in the current meta (besides, maybe, Machinist) because we have not yet reached the point at which Critical Hit Rate stops being extremely effective per-point. We may never reach that point.

But to argue that this point being beyond the scope of numbers we'll ever reach means we're not approaching it the higher our Crit climbs is ignorant.

[Bikkusu]

I knew you would actively ignore every piece in my post that outwardly refutes your incorrect points. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.


Warriors being +/- 1% from Bards and Machinists in Gordias is absolutely a problem, though? It's definitely broken?

No, not broken. Players (customers!) want to play that way AND they can play that way effectively proves that it is not broken.

I'm sorry you're upset that your numbers were nerfed, but none of the tanks were changed in any meaningful way outside of buffs (Grit/SwO/ShO no longer break combos). The damage change is absolutely meaningless, especially with the lower DPS requirements for new content. Tanks can still contribute, they just contribute less.

They absolutely were, though, and you literally *just* agreed to this in what you said next.


T I E R S.


T I E R S.


T I E R S.

This is going to sound like a troll now, but no, sorry.

DPS is the only damage they see, please review live letters.

Tank damage is not factored in. Healers should not be DPSing.

These are not tiers, these are roles. They are something they force upon it.

You're the only voice in this thread throwing a tantrum over these changes. The vast majority of tanks actually have brains and flat agree with the fact that tank damage was too high and the requirement to mitigate incoming damage consistently (read: tank stance) in fights was too low. They fixed this in 3.2.

In this thread, sure; because this one deals with the strength accessories and their role.

Initial comments have, and always were, that the primary stats for tanks on the accessories mean nothing in 3.2, it is all about the secondary stats and the benefits you get from those. 2400 to 3200 extra hit points will net you nothing in the long run.

So, like, stop changing your argument, basically? You were arguing one page ago about how "IT'S NOT DPS GUYS IT'S CRITS FOR EQUILIBRIUM WHICH I SHOULD BE MAINLY USING FOR TP" and now it's all about the deeps. Color me thoroughly confused.

Are you having trouble with TP? Equilibrium in a normal tanking role is for heal backs, again since they have made it so tank damage doesn't count there isn't a point to stay in Deliverance or swap to Deliverance except during a pause phase to perhaps beat up an add. If you're having trouble with TP then you're doing something wrong with your Wrath.

(Also: FF1, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, FF12 IZJS, FF13 - not sure on the FF12 one, that's just the way I always read the info on it.)
(That's not including the Tactics series or any other non-numbered ones.)

FF1: Knight = Powerhouse in armor, not the tank it was meant to be.
FF3: Same as FF1
FF4: Cecil does more damage than Kain, Rosa with a bow is highly effective for damage in the back.
FF5: Same as FF1 with even more options now that you can add skills from other classes in it.
FF6: Roles? LOL.
FF9: Steiner is a spellblade, everyone is damage.
FF12: Again, roles? LOL.
FF13: Roles? Swap those out in combat, Triple Ravager does amazing to finish lots of content.
Tactics: Swap skills out for customization of characters.

Okay. I apologize. I thought my explanation might go over your head, so let me explain it in simpler terms.

A diminishing return is a situation in which adding more of a stat gives you less gains from that stat as the base value from which you are increasing gets higher. Critical Hit Rate is a multiplicative stat. It increases at a linear rate. This creates a curve that plateaus (slowly) as you increase the value. The more Crit you have, the less effective gains you get from increasing the stat further.

Yes, it also increases critical damage, and this absolutely helps to stem the curve and make it slower! It's absolutely true that Crit is higher weight than Det for every Job in the current meta (besides, maybe, Machinist) because we have not yet reached the point at which Critical Hit Rate stops being extremely effective per-point. We may never reach that point.

But to argue that this point being beyond the scope of numbers we'll ever reach means we're not approaching it the higher our Crit climbs is ignorant.

Yup, and by the time you get to the point where your curve is plateauing (not in this expansion) your damage/healing is making up the difference.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

When it was first announced Reddit almost unanimously agreed the change was necessary. The FFXIV subreddit may be more divisive than this forum. You do not speak for everyone, stop assuming you do.

[Ashkendor]

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

Sorry, but you don't speak for me either. The STR meta came about as the result of bad design and I'm glad they finally fixed it. It's not perfect, but it's better. I'm happy that I don't have to take weeks to buy my raid accessories with tokens anymore (because I'd feel really shitty greed rolling with our 2 melee on them). We don't have a collective groan to look forward to any time a Fending accessory drops because they actually have a use now aside from decorating the floor. I played and enjoyed the STR meta too, but honestly the whole thing was really broken on a fundamental design level. You had people telling newbies wearing Fending accessories (you know, the only ones that you can Need roll on?) that they were bad for wearing them.

[JackFross]

:|

No, not broken. Players (customers!) want to play that way AND they can play that way effectively proves that it is not broken.

I really don't know how to convince you that you're wrong. A meta is broken when things are not being done according to the way the developers want them to be done. This is true across all games and all genres. If a character in a fighting game is discovered to be broken due to a skill or mechanic they employ, they're balanced out either by the devs or players (character/skill bans). Same applies here. The difference between that and FFXIV is players are going to exploit broken elements because it's a cooperative game, not competetive. There's no one (besides you, apparently) who disagrees with this statement:

Warrior pre-3.2 was incredibly broken. 3.2 barely addressed its broken nature, but DID bring it down to the realm of the mortals... sort of.

This is going to sound like a troll now, but no, sorry.

DPS is the only damage they see, please review live letters.

Tank damage is not factored in. Healers should not be DPSing.

These are not tiers, these are roles. They are something they force upon it.

Healers still have dps skills. Tanks still do damage. There's no penalty for doing damage on either Job. You're still encouraged to do it to clear content early - this was even stated in the Live Letters. Those who want to push the new raid tier week 1 will do so by getting crafted gear and leaning on tank and healer dps, which they did, and continue to do.

It's not forced on you. You have the absolute shittiest outlook on this game that I have ever encountered. Why do you still play it?

In this thread, sure; because this one deals with the strength accessories and their role.

This thread is talking about the exact thing that you're the only one arguing for. The fact that no one is supporting you in a thread discussing the "problem" you see means you're wrong, according to the community. You definitely do not speak for everyone when you're a lone voice among hundreds.

Initial comments have, and always were, that the primary stats for tanks on the accessories mean nothing in 3.2, it is all about the secondary stats and the benefits you get from those. 2400 to 3200 extra hit points will net you nothing in the long run.

Except that 2400 to 3200 health could mean the difference between a wipe and a clear. The new raid tier (even in Normal) is incredibly tight on tank and healer checks. One mis-handled mechanic results in a dead tank, especially when they're rocking less buffer health. I dunno about you, but when I pug Alexander Normal, my goal is to kill the fight, not min-max pointless secondaries that make no meaningful change to any of my utility skills.

And even if you flip-flop to the dps argument, gaining <1% dps over the course of a fight at the cost of >10% of your maximum health is absolutely idiotic, and you should stop doing it.

Are you having trouble with TP? Equilibrium in a normal tanking role is for heal backs, again since they have made it so tank damage doesn't count there isn't a point to stay in Deliverance or swap to Deliverance except during a pause phase to perhaps beat up an add. If you're having trouble with TP then you're doing something wrong with your Wrath.

I don't play Warrior. I play Dark Knight and Paladin. On Paladin, my TP runs dry real quick in A7N, for example, especially when my OT WAR thinks his dps (which is generally lower than mine with him in Deliverance and me in Shield Oath) matters just so much so I should just hunker down through Uplander Doom. Losing those MP GCDs for stance swaps is kind of detrimental to my overall TP management.

Either way, you should rarely be using Equilibrium for self-heals. Healers will keep you up most of the time. and Equilibrium gives you an extra stack, which aids in your ability to get 3 Fell Cleaves during your Berserks - something every single Warrior, main-tank or off-tank, should be doing.

ff junk

This isn't a discussion of FF roles, but pretty much all of those classifications have nothing to do with the point you made. Every single Job in each of those games performs one primary function. Cecil's Paladin is not FFXIV's Paladin. It's a drastically different Job that fills a drastically different Role, but it still fills exactly that one Role and nothing else, outside of the remake. That same comment can be applied to every single "counter-argument" you tried to bring to the table. Also, you should check out this link, re:FF12.

Yup, and by the time you get to the point where your curve is plateauing (not in this expansion) your damage/healing is making up the difference.

I like how this argument is completely irrelevant to the point that I was making in that quote! Thanks for proving that you can't follow a discussion.
I was simply proving that Critical Hit Rate has diminishing returns in FFXIV. I was not saying that it's bad or whatever you're trying to imply I was saying in your comment here.
So, thank you for entirely missing the point and proving that I'm wasting my time talking to you.

[HoodRat]

Either way, you should rarely be using Equilibrium for self-heals. Healers will keep you up most of the time, and Equilibrium gives you an extra stack, which aids in your ability to get 3 Fell Cleaves during your Berserks - something every single Warrior, main-tank or off-tank, should be doing.

Actually, equilibrium doesn't increase wrath/abandon stacks. Unless they changed that in 3.2. Which, given how much I pay attention, may well have happened. But still, giving up hp to increase crit rating for those equilibrium crits is a little dumb.

Apparently Bikkusu is unaware that SE isn't making intense dps checks right now and that they have tuned all pre-existing content to account for tank dps being nerfed. Judging by that and the fact that Bikkusu has a slight, a very very slight, dps increase from using those slaying accessories with crit and yet still claims that tank dps doesn't matter, she clearly isn't playing warrior efficiently.