[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Morningstar1337]

That's one of the reasons I think "the truth" is simply that Hydaelyn allows death; "She is the hand that rocks the cradle, The wind that breaks the bough and leaves you to die!"

I see this whole thing as; Pre-split, nothing died, but nothing lived either. Post-split, death became a concept. Something the Ascians take issue with. The potential meaning of Mor Dhona in Dragonspeak and Answers/Dragonsong lyrics just throw more fuel to that fire.

>After Urianger reads "The Gerun Oracles"
>Elidibus: Now you know the truth. Hyaealyn allows death!
>Warrior of Darkness recoils as a scare chord plays and a thunderbolt strikes the Hinterlands
>Urianger raises his eyebrow, silently wondering if this is really "the truth that would make the Warrior of Light suddenly switch sides"

Thanks for the idea for this skit.

[Fenral]

Christ... You're telling me they don't lurk in the shadows when all we've seen from Elidibus since his introduction is various shadowy meetings? Seriously?

No, I'm saying they aren't hidden at this point. Lurking and shadows are just part of the package.

[Nalien]

No, I'm saying they aren't hidden at this point. Lurking and shadows are just part of the package.

So what's your point?

Of course they're not hidden anymore... How would we possibly combat them if that were the case? They've been hidden though, throughout history.

The corruption in the Church of Yevon was hidden for much of the game. Then we found out about it, and it wasn't hidden anymore... During 1.0 Ascians were largely an unknown. Then we found out about them...

Ascians aren't Sin. Primals are Sin. Who is responsible for Sin? Who perpetuated that cycle? Who is responsible for Primals? Who perpetuates this cycle? Who perpetuates the populaces ignorance? That's what I was getting at with the Yevon stuff. By no means is it a perfect parallel, but there is something there. Same thing for the IV/IX comparison I made. I'm trying to draw parallels between this plot and the plot of past titles (or even plots in this game, Ishgard/Nidhogg, for example), to see if that points anywhere, of course those parallels wont be perfect, if they were we'd essentially have the same plot...

[Fenral]

So what's your point?

The Ascians are being held up as the "kill this and all the bad stuff will go away" enemy. Have been for a while at this point, to the point that the "reveal" wasn't really much of a surprise. Whether or not that really turns out to be the case, we're basically taking the word of a giant blue rock on faith alone at this point.

And did you really miss that Ishgard's sudden "kill Nidhogg and everything will be solved!" bent is framed as a tragic turn of events? Technically did kill him already without fixing the root of the problem. It seems to me that you're saying there's really no meaning to the plot point of Nidhogg coming back except so we can kill him again, in public view, to satisfy Ishgard's cravings for dragon blood one last time and write off Estinien so he doesn't have to show up in the next expansion.

"Just kill all the bad people and bad stuff will stop happening" is... not the point. I don't think so, anyway.

[myahele]

I never really thought of it, but now I realized that not only is Alisae spied on the WoD, Urienger and Elidibus, but now Thancred is spying on the WoD, too ... I sense that there'll be a conflict/ misunderstanding between Urienger and Thancred eventually. Maybe this is where Alisae will come into play?

While we're on the subject of the Fiend's lyric "What it is like when you pull out the curtain. When you find every wrong is right" (rough lyrics)

Elidibus is always taking about there being a "veil" over us. Then there's us currently believing that the Asciens and Primal summoning are wrong ... but now maybe that's not *quite* the case.

We don't know the full story, yet. When it comes for the "greater good" the rejoining might make sense ... but such things means death. Is returning to the "way things were" worth it?

I guess we'll find out more

[CyrilLucifer]

What I'm more curious about that scene is if Elidibus was in a host or not and if she could see or hear him. Or did she just see Urianger with the WoD? Her ability or lack thereof to see Elidibus could have drastically influenced her perception of that scene.

(Also, I agree with Fenral, the whole point of the expansion is that getting rid of the messenger doesn't influence the root of the problem. It's as I said on the last page; I don't think killing the Ascians all off now will do anything, we're already unbalanced, Hydaelyn has been unbalanced since she sundered Zodiark. Honestly, arguing it is a bit of a lost cause, though).

[Nalien]

"Just kill all the bad people and bad stuff will stop happening" is... not the point. I don't think so, anyway.

That's a glaring oversimplification...

Stopping the Ascians does not magically fix human nature. We'll still have "bad" people to deal with, Ilberd seemingly had no interaction with Ascians, he caused trouble on his own. Potentially the same for Garlemald, given all we've got so far is Lahabrea and Gaius being in cahoots, and Gaius was on his own anyway (though history with the Allag certainly leaves one suspicious). Primals are going to be a problem regardless, the Amalj'aa know how to summon Ifrit. That's the Ascians fault, but even if we kill each and every last Ascians, the Amalj'aa are still going to know how to summon Ifrit. We're still going to have to deal with that. We'll have to deal with Garlemald dealing with that in the worst possible way. We'll have to deal with silly power struggles...

The only thing I imagine we'd achieve if we wiped out the Ascians (and we wont, because we completely lack the means to do so) is an end to this cycle of Calamities... They're the ones orchestrating them, after all...

It seems to me that you're saying there's really no meaning to the plot point of Nidhogg coming back except so we can kill him again, in public view, to satisfy Ishgard's cravings for dragon blood one last time and write off Estinien so he doesn't have to show up in the next expansion.

Firstly, we can save Estinien. I don't particularly care, but there is no reason to write him off, other than perhaps to put Alphinaud down again so his sister can hopefully come back and slap some sense into him for whatever follows.

As for Nidhogg coming back... Essentially, yes... He came back to push the plot forward, not much else... We've already killed him once, peace was never really an option anyway. That's a two way street that he was completely against walking, we cannot force him to want to make peace... That bridge was burnt long ago, when we rocked into the Aery we just finished the job by burning the river and the land...

That said, I'm less cynical about what he is back to do... Satisfy Ishgard? No. The crazed hate machine is unknowingly undoing his own plans. He wants to separate Ishgard and Dravania, and to make Ishgard suffer, but he just pushed them closer together... Ishgard was shocked to see a dragon get stabbed, that says a lot about where they are right now... Then there's also my pet theory that him flying off to "skies unknown" in 3.1 was Garlemald, and he was setting up a new Eorzea/Garlemald conflict by pointing out Eorzeans are summoning Primals... I swear though, if I have to flip one more table as someone makes me explain that that doesn't mean he is allied with Garlemald...

Hydaelyn has been unbalanced since she sundered Zodiark

Before, if we're to trust her. She claimed Zodiark coveted power, and that broke the balance between Light and Dark, forcing her to banish him... And all this was "Before there was life", which just has me going back to the whole "we exist because Hydaelyn did this" thing and adequately explains the Ascians complete disregard for life in general. So again... I'm not seeing much of a problem with what she did... The only major problems I've seen evidence of since Hydaelyn set up this scenario, are Primals and Calamities... Both of which can be traced back to the Ascians...

[Zohar_Lahar]

We exist to stop bad things and help people. Ascians seemingly exist to create bad things and kill people. This cosmic feud between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is, to me, inconsequential. Essentially the same as the Bevelle/Zanarkand War, the finer details of it do not matter, it is simply something to set the stage and explain the current conflict. The one where the shadowy organization that facilitates the existence of a giant hate-whale ruins peoples lives and actively undermines the truth...

Eh...I think the Dragonsong War is a much closer analogy to Final Fantasy X.

[Cilia]

That's one of the reasons I think "the truth" is simply that Hydaelyn allows death; "She is the hand that rocks the cradle, The wind that breaks the bough and leaves you to die!"

I see this whole thing as; Pre-split, nothing died, but nothing lived either. Post-split, death became a concept. Something the Ascians take issue with. The potential meaning of Mor Dhona in Dragonspeak and Answers/Dragonsong lyrics just throw more fuel to that fire.

You know, much as I disagree with your notion that we don't need to learn the whole truth, I think you may be onto something there...

... if Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark before life even existed... why does life exist?

Life is a precious gift, but death is a terrible curse... yet, life cannot exist without death. The gift and the curse are one in the same...

I... don't really trust the lyrics to Sephirot's theme to provide exposition. It's probably more like "Hydaelyn gives you life and then leaves you; I will protect you to the last," as a message to his worshipers (since, you know, they summoned him so they wouldn't be killed / conquered by Allag - something Hydaelyn seems to have been mum on). With Hydaelyn doing nothing to help them, what other choice might they have had? (Primal songs are usually sung from the perspective of said primal, and like they're going to tell you why not to believe in them...)

Well, that said, eliminating death would eliminate life as well. Certainly a good reason to go against Zodiark. But we don't know if Zodiark's sundering is the root cause of death, and being outside the cycle, the Ascians shouldn't really care. It does explain their disregard for mortal lives, but they shouldn't be opposed to death itself as a universal force, given they didn't even consider themselves mortal in any sense of the word until our showdown with Nabriales.

There's more to this than we know. If Hydaelyn / the Word of the Mother is unwilling or unable to tell us, then we should try and speak with the only other people who do know. (And yes, take it with a grain of salt because they're going to put their perspective in it - but like Hydaelyn doesn't?)

[CyrilLucifer]

... if Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark before life even existed... why does life exist?

Oh, you missed my post in the other thread about that topic, but no one wants to debate the origin of life cough. I was thinking too much about sentient rocks floating down the galaxy, looking for power, and how absolutely absurd the image Hydaelyn evokes is. Why and how does a giant sentient rock start coveting power? Am I the only one who thought that was crazy? Y-yes?

tl;dr of a baseless crackpot:
Hydaelyn and Zodiark were not originally crystals, but the crystallization was caused by Hydaelyn separating them. The crystalization is also what allows for life to exist.

Which I totally half-stole from XI and modified for XIV, I admit. Altana shattered the mothercrystal, which ended the age of Gods and allowed for life to exist, and using Her partner's flesh She created Her children.